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Author Topic: Poison - Air school?  (Read 6034 times)

iNano78

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Poison - Air school?
« on: March 23, 2015, 03:50:29 pm »
Apologies if this has been discussed before.  I did a quick search but didn't find anything.

First a comment: I can't help wonder why [mwcard=MW1J18]Poison Gas Cloud[/mwcard], Wall of Poison Gas, and presumably future poison-related objects are Air school.  In other fantasy games I'm familiar with, poison would be associated with Dark (or equivalent).  In Mage Wars, there are a lot of Dark effects that deal poison damage (e.g. Idol of Pestilence, Malacoda, the Necromancer's abilities) or hand out poison conditions (e.g. Rot, Tainted, Weak, even Ichthellid Larva), but I still find it odd that physical (albeit incorporeal) manifestations of poison are exclusively Air school, not Dark or Air & Dark.  I mainly mention this because I dream of a future card analogous to Ring of Fire/Electrify that generates a ring of poison that hits everything in the zone except the caster (or even including the caster... who may or may not be immune to poison)... perhaps does 2 dice of damage but has a high chance of dealing a Rot or two (or perhaps Rot or Tainted or both) and I wonder if it too will be an Air school attack spell, or perhaps Air & Dark, sort of like how Devil's Trident got the Fire & Dark treatment.

Next a question: Aside from Armor +2, does a [mwcard=MW1Q33]Wind Wyvern Hide[/mwcard] provide protection against an attack from Wall of Poison Gas?  The damage type is poison, as is the card's written attribute in the top-right ("Cloud, Poison"), but the school is Air.  *edit* I answered my own question, as I had incorrectly remembered the school as "Wind" but it's "Air" (and then did a find/replace throughout).  Thus, Wind Wyvern Hide won't protect a mage from the Wall (aside from providing armour)... meanwhile a Necromancer would be immune since the attack has the poison type.  Too bad there aren't ways to alter a mage's school (e.g. make an "Air Necromancer" that's level 2 in each of Air & Dark)... ;)

Anyway feel free to discuss: "Poison: Air vs Dark"
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 04:22:18 pm by iNano78 »
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Poison - Air school?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 04:53:26 pm »
Why is lightning air and not holy/air? :P you know, because of the light?
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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2015, 06:22:13 pm »
I'd like it if poison clouds were dark/air (or dark OR air if level1)
I'd like it if lightning and wind attacks were in different schools
And I'd especially like devouring jelly to be arcane/water

but thats not the world we live in
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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2015, 06:29:08 pm »
Poison Gas Cloud and Wall of Poison Gas are Air because they are Gas! Simple as that. Poison is not evil (aka Dark) by itself.

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 12:08:28 am »
I agree with Wildhorn.

iNano78

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 06:32:40 am »
I can see the "gas = air" argument, which is why I shrugged it off when the only exams was Poison Gas Cloud. But now the Wall is also Air.

One of the reasons for my issue with this possible thematic disconnect is that it's susceptible to Wind damage. In all other cases I can think of (well, with 1 exception maybe), objects tend to be resistant or immune to their own damage type (e.g. most demons to flame, poisonous creatures to their own poison/venom, the chest piece armours, etc) and/or susceptible to "enemy" (or at least different) damage types from other schools (fire/burn to water/hydro, dark/undead to light/holy, plants to fire, undead/dark to plants/nature, metal (especially shiny armours) to lightning (which is sort of earth to air, although a lot of the guys wearing armour tend to be holy in this game), etc. even Gravikor, which is an earth spell, will counter flying creatures - although I'll admit that flying creatures tend to dislike air spells (but flying creatures aren't necessarily from the Air school).

But then Poison Gas Cloud / Wall are air spells that are susceptible to wind damage...
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 09:26:27 am by iNano78 »
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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 08:14:17 am »
I can see the "gas = air" argument, which is why I shrugged it off when the only exams was Poison Gas Cloud. But now the Wall is also Air.

One of the reasons for my issue with this possible thematic disconnect is that it's susceptible to Wind damage. In all other cases I can think of (well, with 1 exception maybe), objects tend to be resistant or immune to their own damage type (e.g. most demons to flame, poisonous creatures to their own poison/venom, the chest piece armours, etc) and/or susceptible to "enemy" (or at least different) damage types from other schools (fire/burn to water/hydro, dark/undead to light/holy, plants to fire, undead/dark to plants/nature, metal (especially shiny armours) to lightning (which is sort of earth to air, although a lot of the guys wearing armour tend to be holy in this game), etc. even Gravikor, which is an earth spell, will counter flying creatures - although I'll admit that flying creatures tend to dislike air spells (but flying creatures aren't necessarily from the wind school).

But then Poison Gas Cloud / Wall are air spells that are susceptible to wind damage...

The key word being air. They are not wind spells. Many schools have multiple damage types; for instance, the water school is home to both the Acid and Hydro damage types. The air school contains both the Wind and Lightning damage types. Even if we accept that objects should be resistant to their own damage type (which I do not think always needs to be the case), there is still no problem because Poison Gas objects do not have the wind subtype.

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 09:15:30 am »
The key word being air. They are not wind spells. Many schools have multiple damage types; for instance, the water school is home to both the Acid and Hydro damage types. The air school contains both the Wind and Lightning damage types. Even if we accept that objects should be resistant to their own damage type (which I do not think always needs to be the case), there is still no problem because Poison Gas objects do not have the wind subtype.

By "many," I guess you mean 2: Air school has two damage types (Lightning and Wind).  Water has three damage types (Hydro, Acid and Frost - at least in principle).  But thus far, Fire only has Flame and Holy only has Light.  Objects from those schools aren't especially susceptible to damage types from their own schools; generally the opposite is true - e.g. Lightning Beetle has Lightning -2, Fire Demons have either Flame -2 or Flame Immunity, Devouring Jelly has Acid Immunity, etc.  I can't think of another example (besides these Poison conjurations) where a card belonging to a specific elemental school is susceptible to a damage type associated with that same elemental school.  And in fact some Dark creatures/mages (e.g. Malacoda, the Necromancer) and all non-living creatures are immune to poison, which would suggest poison ought to be Dark (and it is when you look at curses, Idol of Pestilence, etc). But at least one future Nature creature is (selectively) immune to a poison attack (e.g. Oscuda), and there are many non-living creatures that aren't Dark (Arcane has the jelly, Earth has a golem and an elemental, Mind has a stalker, War has Talos), so at least there are exceptions.

I'm not saying "it must be that way."  I'm merely saying that these poison conjurations stand out as exceptions to a general trend, and on top of that, seem to belong to an unintuitive school, at least to me, based on previous fantasy gaming experience.  But yes, I get the concept that wind might blow away a gaseous cloud.  On the other hand, it would equally make sense to me that clouds would be Water school, since they are actually composed of liquid droplets... and then you'd have Water school conjurations susceptible to Wind damage (e.g. Air school spells)... that might be a little more intuitive.

Do you think a hypothetical "Poison Ring" attack spell analogous to Ring of Fire, or other future poison spells, should be exclusively Air school?  If so, that means Wind Wyvern Hide would provide some protection against it, reducing the attack dice rolled by 3 and subtracting 3 from its poisonous effect die.  I guess that's thematically reasonable, since Wyverns are often venomous/poisonous in fantasy games and literature.
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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 03:08:05 pm »
Objects from those schools aren't especially susceptible to damage types from their own schools; generally the opposite is true - e.g. Lightning Beetle has Lightning -2, Fire Demons have either Flame -2 or Flame Immunity, Devouring Jelly has Acid Immunity, etc.  I can't think of another example (besides these Poison conjurations) where a card belonging to a specific elemental school is susceptible to a damage type associated with that same elemental school.

Devouring Jelly has no resistance to Hydro (and isn't Water school anyway). Lightning Beetle has no resistance to wind. Screech Harpy, Galador, and Whirling spirit have no resistance to Wind or Lightning, despite being Air school.  I think you might be mixing up Schools and Subtypes.

Clouds are associated with air because they are gaseous, not because they are specifically made up of air. The four classical elements refer as much to the 'nature' of an object as to its composition, i.e. Earth is solid, Water is liquid, Air is gaseous, and fire is variable/incorporeal. Since poison clouds are gases, the Air school does seem the most appropriate, as others have mentioned.

The dark school does indeed have quite a bit of poison, but its spells that deal poison damage are evil in their very nature; demons, undead abominations, and altars to corruption and evil. Poison gas is just a natural phenomenon - a deadly one, perhaps, but so is much of nature, and deadliness is not the same as evil. That isn't to say that the Dark school would be inappropriate, but sorting cloud spells of this sort into the Air school is perfectly fine.

Do you think a hypothetical "Poison Ring" attack spell analogous to Ring of Fire, or other future poison spells, should be exclusively Air school?  If so, that means Wind Wyvern Hide would provide some protection against it, reducing the attack dice rolled by 3 and subtracting 3 from its poisonous effect die.  I guess that's thematically reasonable, since Wyverns are often venomous/poisonous in fantasy games and literature.

Depends on the theme; if it is "Ring of Poison Gas", then there would be nothing wrong with Air. If it were "Ring of Demonic Venom", perhaps Dark would be a better choice. Likewise, "Ring of Bees" might be a Nature version. Such a spell would likely have the Poison subtype, and therefore Wind Wyvern Hide would provide no protection against it, as Wind Wyvern hide only protects against Wind attacks (it is similarly ineffective against, for instance, Lightning attacks, despite them belonging to the Air school).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 03:11:09 pm by ACG »

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 03:55:17 pm »
Objects from those schools aren't especially susceptible to damage types from their own schools; generally the opposite is true - e.g. Lightning Beetle has Lightning -2, Fire Demons have either Flame -2 or Flame Immunity, Devouring Jelly has Acid Immunity, etc.  I can't think of another example (besides these Poison conjurations) where a card belonging to a specific elemental school is susceptible to a damage type associated with that same elemental school.

Devouring Jelly has no resistance to Hydro (and isn't Water school anyway). Lightning Beetle has no resistance to wind. Screech Harpy, Galador, and Whirling spirit have no resistance to Wind or Lightning, despite being Air school.  I think you might be mixing up Schools and Subtypes.

We're generally on the same page.  I'm not suggesting every object belonging to an elemental school or having a certain subtype should have some resistance or immunity to a damage type associated with that school.  But I am suggesting it is odd - in fact, unprecedented - that an object belonging to an elemental school is particularly susceptible (e.g. has the Damage Type +X attribute) to a damage type associated with that same school, as in the case with Poison Gas Cloud / Wall of Poison Gas. 

My bad on bringing the Jelly into this; for some reason I thought it was Water school (and hence made sense that it has Acid Immunity, where Acid damage type is generally associated with Water school - see Acid Ball).  But that's fine.  There are oodles of examples of non-elemental school objects like the Jelly that have resistance and/or immunity to a particular damage type or spell attribute type that is associated with a different (elemental) school.

Clouds are associated with air because they are gaseous, not because they are specifically made up of air. The four classical elements refer as much to the 'nature' of an object as to its composition, i.e. Earth is solid, Water is liquid, Air is gaseous, and fire is variable/incorporeal. Since poison clouds are gases, the Air school does seem the most appropriate, as others have mentioned.

Yes, I see what you're saying... although I'll still contest that clouds are generally composed of small droplets of liquid (or solid particulates, in the case of smoke), not gas.  In real life, a poison cloud would likely be comprised of water droplets with some dissolved toxin.  Hence I suggested that poison cloud could just as easily be Water school... which would make me less argumentative regarding it being susceptible to Wind damage; e.g. a damage type associated with a different school, Air. However, a gaseous cloud of poison could still be naturally occurring: hydrogen sulfide, for instance.  Besides, they already put the word "gas" in the title, so I guess it's a little late to debate its phase of matter.

The dark school does indeed have quite a bit of poison, but its spells that deal poison damage are evil in their very nature; demons, undead abominations, and altars to corruption and evil. Poison gas is just a natural phenomenon - a deadly one, perhaps, but so is much of nature, and deadliness is not the same as evil. That isn't to say that the Dark school would be inappropriate, but sorting cloud spells of this sort into the Air school is perfectly fine.

A gameplay/balance reason I bring this up is that it's easy to build a Flame-based Wizard or Warlock using mostly in-school spells, or a Light damage based Priest(ess), and based on promos it looks like a Wind damage based mage will be easier soon, too.  But it's much more difficult to build a poison-based mage (including Air Wizard) using in-school spells because no mage is trained in Dark + Air.  Yet the poison-based enchantments are Dark curses (e.g. Ghoul Rot, Poisoned Blood), poison-based creatures show up in a few schools but especially Dark (e.g. Darkfenne Bat, Plague Zombie, Ichthellid Larva, Venomous Zombie, Malacoda, etc; let it be noted there are also several Nature creatures that deal poison counters including Oscuda, Emerald Tegu, Death's Head Scorpion, Giant Wolf Spider, etc), but poison-based conjurations are split between Dark and Air (e.g. Idol of Pestilence, Altar of Skulls; Poison Gas Cloud, Wall of Poison Gas).  And many of these are level 2 or higher (Ghoul Rot, all the poisonous creatures aside from Darkfenne Bat, all of the conjurations including the wall). This makes for an expensive archetype.
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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 05:19:23 pm »
My only complaint is that a necro should be better trained to cast poison cloud than an air wizard. Just based on personal theme. necro is the poison master(plague master to be technical) and air wizard is the lighting and occasionally gust of wind master.
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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2015, 02:54:00 pm »
Personally, I'm a big fan of the spell classification used in the Ars Magica RPG. It does have it's oddities, but they are easily explained by thinking about the medieval understanding of the world.

In Ars Magica Posion Gas would definitely belong into the Air realm ('Auram') because it's gaseous. Liquid poisons would belong to the Water realm, though ('Aquam').

Lightning actually belongs to the Fire realm ('Ignem') because light and thunder are just side-effects. What it really does is set things on fire!

Another oddity are Ice spells: They actually belong to the Earth realm ('Terram') because ice is solid.

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2015, 04:59:37 pm »
Quote from: iNano78
But I am suggesting it is odd - in fact, unprecedented - that an object belonging to an elemental school is particularly susceptible (e.g. has the Damage Type +X attribute) to a damage type associated with that same school, as in the case with Poison Gas Cloud / Wall of Poison Gas. 

Odd, maybe, but I see nothing wrong with it especially since they are still different subtypes.

Quote from: iNano78
But it's much more difficult to build a poison-based mage (including Air Wizard) using in-school spells because no mage is trained in Dark + Air.

This is true about current mages, but future mages could easily have training that made it possible to specialize in poison. Not all of the damage types are fully fleshed out yet. Some have much more spell support than others (Frost being particularly left behind) and others may lack the foundation they need in a good Mage to build off of. These are issues that can easily be resolved with new expansions.

I think this is similar to how it is currently difficult to build a book based around a creature subtype unless that subtype is Soldier or Animal. The complaint is only valid with the current card pool which is ever growing.

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2015, 03:23:33 am »
Oh! how much i want to build a solid Goblin spellbook :)

If only goblins could be quickcasted same way as Tartaree  ::)
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iNano78

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Re: Poison - Air school?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2015, 06:10:06 am »
Oh! how much i want to build a solid Goblin spellbook :)

If only goblins could be quickcasted same way as Tartaree  ::)

While they can't be quick-casted (like Beastmaster's level 1 animals), there are 5 different goblins, 3 orcs and a troll, and all are "soldiers" so they work great with Barracks with bonuses from Armory, Archer's Watchtower, etc. It's fun watching them get promoted with the Veteran ability. And you can use Etherian Lifetree and other Beastmaster tricks to help them last a little longer. Unfortunately it's hard not consider some of the dwarven and human soldiers. And of course the Arcane penalty that the Warlord pays...

But if you want to do Goblins, you have to channel your inner Timmy and check your Spike at the door.
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