September 27, 2022, 06:36:04 PM

Author Topic: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook  (Read 25384 times)

Mystery

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2015, 03:06:30 AM »

Why do you think that the Pentagram is the best creature spawnpoint besides Gate to Voltari? I like the consistency that the Lair offers considerably better, particularly given how much better it in terms of action economy to play turn 1. There are good dark living creatures, just not good ones to support a spawnpoint play. I feel like Infernian Scourger was printed to try to fill that role, but hes just not nearly good enough at it.
Mostly because it's so survivable, what I've found is that squishy spawnpoints are so easily focused that you're just better off without them to begin with(Battle Forge being the exception because it's so cheap). It is the best in itself, this is if dark living creatures were on par with Nature or Holy creatures. However since they just aren't, I totally agree that Lair is the best. Basically my argument was, just looking at the card itself and taking nothing else into consideration in regards to what type of creatures it can actually pump out.

Surviveability? Cause not that many currently take the ethereal cards as incorporeal is currently not so common. and arcane zap and its dead, without harmonize you are not getting many creatures out fast and can only utilize it 1time in the first 3 rounds and if the wizard or some ethereal available mage just comes offensive it's dead and that for 14mana. It is just damn expensive.
it is a really slow start untill your 2mana bonus comes out and you get the bonus for attacking different enemy creatures, so no extra channel if force field is up, all other solo mages.

Hanma

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2015, 04:19:43 PM »

Why do you think that the Pentagram is the best creature spawnpoint besides Gate to Voltari? I like the consistency that the Lair offers considerably better, particularly given how much better it in terms of action economy to play turn 1. There are good dark living creatures, just not good ones to support a spawnpoint play. I feel like Infernian Scourger was printed to try to fill that role, but hes just not nearly good enough at it.
Mostly because it's so survivable, what I've found is that squishy spawnpoints are so easily focused that you're just better off without them to begin with(Battle Forge being the exception because it's so cheap). It is the best in itself, this is if dark living creatures were on par with Nature or Holy creatures. However since they just aren't, I totally agree that Lair is the best. Basically my argument was, just looking at the card itself and taking nothing else into consideration in regards to what type of creatures it can actually pump out.

Surviveability? Cause not that many currently take the ethereal cards as incorporeal is currently not so common. and arcane zap and its dead, without harmonize you are not getting many creatures out fast and can only utilize it 1time in the first 3 rounds and if the wizard or some ethereal available mage just comes offensive it's dead and that for 14mana. It is just damn expensive.
it is a really slow start untill your 2mana bonus comes out and you get the bonus for attacking different enemy creatures, so no extra channel if force field is up, all other solo mages.

Agreed, if the metagame shifted to wind Wizard actually being competitive then pentagram would be horrible. Wizard is also of course it's worst match up and that doesn't help, but at least there's something to be said about forcing them into coming 0-1. From my play, my opinion on spawnpoints is that it's not so much about the amount of mana that they generate(Of course, more is always better) it's about how long they stay on the board to pump out creatures. That is why I like pentagram more than Lair. Granted, having a 9 channeling mage behind a Pentagram is also pretty bad, but that's a whole different topic.

sdougla2

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2015, 08:40:46 PM »
The Beastmaster isn't as good an example of a strong late game mage as a Priestess because his defenses aren't nearly as strong, and it's harder for him to keep his investments alive long enough to reach a dominating late game position. Although just a bear and multiple wolves is hardly a late game position anyway. You can reach that state by turn 3-4, although you might have to accept an unhealthy lack of defense in order to pull it off depending on what your opponent is doing.

Turn 1 (19): Ring of Beasts -> Steelclaw Grizzly (1)
Turn 2 (10): Enchanter's Ring -> Timber Wolf (0)
Turn 3 (9): FD Brace Yourself -> Timber Wolf (0)

A dominating late game position might be something like 2 Guardian Angels, Samandriel, Brogan, and a Knight of Westlock. Playing that much total creature strength is completely unnecessary against a solo rush build, but can be absolutely vital in an attrition mirror match. It really depends on the matchup.

3 Knights of Westlock is more like a midgame position than a late game position unless they had a lot of enchantments boosting them or something.

As to whether attrition strategies are viable in a competitive environment, I don't know. I haven't heard of many in tournaments, but the tournament sample size is so small that it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the relative strengths of different strategies from the data I've seen anyway.

I'm also not sure how long most people that play at tournaments would take to win with an attrition strategy, which could impact tournament viability. It shouldn't hurt the Attrition Priestess too much due to her tools for gaining a life advantage, but I can see it hurting other attrition mages.
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ringkichard

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2015, 07:07:28 AM »
I've had some interesting early results with Gray Angel spam. Throw in a Guardian Angel or two for defense, and just spend the first 6 turns casting Angels if you can. 13 mana for a 4die attack flyer isn't a bad deal. Don't even bother with her terrible spawnpoint, though.

The more I look at it the more it seems that intercept and creature spam are the way to go.
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sdougla2

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2015, 03:56:16 PM »
That sounds like it would work pretty well, though it's 12 mana.

I've been playing around in my head with a 2 Guardian Angels + 2 Steelclaw Grizzlies setup for a Priestess. The Guardian Angels would let me spread damage around, so it would be hard to focus me or my bears down, the bears would do a ton of damage, and the high base stats on all of my creatures would make my healing incredibly efficient.

The main thing I worry about when playing a Steelclaw with another mage is having it corroded and focused down, which the Priestess is really good at preventing. It would be a little weaker against flyers than angel spam, but it would be little less vulnerable to mana denial.
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Hanma

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2015, 09:50:31 PM »
The Beastmaster isn't as good an example of a strong late game mage as a Priestess because his defenses aren't nearly as strong, and it's harder for him to keep his investments alive long enough to reach a dominating late game position. Although just a bear and multiple wolves is hardly a late game position anyway. You can reach that state by turn 3-4, although you might have to accept an unhealthy lack of defense in order to pull it off depending on what your opponent is doing.

Turn 1 (19): Ring of Beasts -> Steelclaw Grizzly (1)
Turn 2 (10): Enchanter's Ring -> Timber Wolf (0)
Turn 3 (9): FD Brace Yourself -> Timber Wolf (0)

A dominating late game position might be something like 2 Guardian Angels, Samandriel, Brogan, and a Knight of Westlock. Playing that much total creature strength is completely unnecessary against a solo rush build, but can be absolutely vital in an attrition mirror match. It really depends on the matchup.

3 Knights of Westlock is more like a midgame position than a late game position unless they had a lot of enchantments boosting them or something.

As to whether attrition strategies are viable in a competitive environment, I don't know. I haven't heard of many in tournaments, but the tournament sample size is so small that it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the relative strengths of different strategies from the data I've seen anyway.

I'm also not sure how long most people that play at tournaments would take to win with an attrition strategy, which could impact tournament viability. It shouldn't hurt the Attrition Priestess too much due to her tools for gaining a life advantage, but I can see it hurting other attrition mages.

Agreed, Priestess is for sure stronger. The problem with attrition strategies in tournaments(specifically Priestess) is that they can't stand up to attack spell Wizard, such as my opening or a better example is Tim's book. This is why I say playstyles like this rely on non-interactive games. If your opponent let you turtle all game to win then they probably would have lost anyway. Time also becomes a factor because if your control does happen to come online, it might do so too late.

That sounds like it would work pretty well, though it's 12 mana.

I've been playing around in my head with a 2 Guardian Angels + 2 Steelclaw Grizzlies setup for a Priestess. The Guardian Angels would let me spread damage around, so it would be hard to focus me or my bears down, the bears would do a ton of damage, and the high base stats on all of my creatures would make my healing incredibly efficient.

The main thing I worry about when playing a Steelclaw with another mage is having it corroded and focused down, which the Priestess is really good at preventing. It would be a little weaker against flyers than angel spam, but it would be little less vulnerable to mana denial.

The problem with this is that you're looking at a Grizzly and Guardian Angel on turn 2 followed by another Grizzly at turn 4 and an Angel at turn 6. This is assuming you are casting almost nothing aside from those. Meanwhile I get to sit back and let my investments win me the game. Guardian Angel would only be used for guard I assume, so all I would have to do is kill Grizzlys to win. It could be annoying, that's for sure. But by the time you have your Angel/Grizzly ready to do something on turn 5 I will have killed one of those creatures already.

I've had some interesting early results with Gray Angel spam. Throw in a Guardian Angel or two for defense, and just spend the first 6 turns casting Angels if you can. 13 mana for a 4die attack flyer isn't a bad deal. Don't even bother with her terrible spawnpoint, though.

The more I look at it the more it seems that intercept and creature spam are the way to go.

You're probably looking at the same problem as sdougla2 but the creatures do come out a bit faster, so that's a plus. Less offensive power though. I'm going to put about as much mana into them as you are putting them out but I'll end up winning out because I have the investments(Mostly Gate) that you wouldn't have.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 09:53:43 PM by Hanma »

Beldin

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2015, 05:18:19 PM »
I like this build an it has opened my eyes a tiny bit, as I had always underrated Jinx.

One thing that doesn't sit right in my thinking is the invisible fist. It is a 4D attack spell with Etheral, which is the same as an arcane zap with hawkeye. I may be missing something here, but to me it seems a waste of spell points.

Hanma

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2015, 05:07:27 PM »
I like this build an it has opened my eyes a tiny bit, as I had always underrated Jinx.

One thing that doesn't sit right in my thinking is the invisible fist. It is a 4D attack spell with Etheral, which is the same as an arcane zap with hawkeye. I may be missing something here, but to me it seems a waste of spell points.

Well, the thing with Hawkeye is I rarely find time to put it on(Read where I talked about it in the book). The Invisible Fist was mostly there for the reasons I talked about in the post. After revising the book and making a better version it did end up getting cut though actually, so I'll have to agree that it wasn't super useful and just got put in because I saw so many Mana Siphons last year.

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2015, 12:50:27 PM »
Wow, great post, very exciting to read! How do you think your Jinx strategy would translate to one of the Nature mages using [mwcard=MW1C13] Fellella, Pixie Familiar[/mwcard] to Jinx?

Hanma

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2015, 08:55:14 PM »
Wow, great post, very exciting to read! How do you think your Jinx strategy would translate to one of the Nature mages using [mwcard=MW1C13] Fellella, Pixie Familiar[/mwcard] to Jinx?

Thanks! I love using it on Druid actually, it's even more devastating than Huginn. As a player, I wish Fellella was Arcane sooooo bad. But that would be horribly imbalanced.

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2015, 09:43:08 PM »
With Fellella, how do you manage the initiative swing? I.e. I trigger the Jinx on my final quickcast, get initiative, then cast something on my first quickcast. Maybe also play a Jinx from your mage on a Quickcast, or just not worry about it?
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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2015, 10:48:52 PM »
I would imagine you can prepare a jinx if you have an elemental wand equipped.  Then you can bank your action and hedge your advantage.
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Kharhaz

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2015, 11:46:16 PM »
Wow, great post, very exciting to read! How do you think your Jinx strategy would translate to one of the Nature mages using [mwcard=MW1C13] Fellella, Pixie Familiar[/mwcard] to Jinx?

Thanks! I love using it on Druid actually, it's even more devastating than Huginn. As a player, I wish Fellella was Arcane sooooo bad. But that would be horribly imbalanced.

I know we have talked about it before Hanma, but Beastmaster is the way to go. :P

Dropping Falcons, Asps, hounds, and cubs while and keeping the jinx lock down is pound for pound the best action swing IMO. Animal Kinship lets you double dip on buffing yourself while keeping the creature train rolling.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 11:47:50 PM by Kharhaz »

Hanma

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2015, 12:52:20 AM »
I haven't playtested with academy yet to be honest, I could see this being right. Without academy though I favor Druid.

Wow, great post, very exciting to read! How do you think your Jinx strategy would translate to one of the Nature mages using [mwcard=MW1C13] Fellella, Pixie Familiar[/mwcard] to Jinx?

Thanks! I love using it on Druid actually, it's even more devastating than Huginn. As a player, I wish Fellella was Arcane sooooo bad. But that would be horribly imbalanced.

I know we have talked about it before Hanma, but Beastmaster is the way to go. :P

Dropping Falcons, Asps, hounds, and cubs while and keeping the jinx lock down is pound for pound the best action swing IMO. Animal Kinship lets you double dip on buffing yourself while keeping the creature train rolling.

Hanma

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Re: Weighted Training Clothes - Gencon 2015 Championship Spellbook
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2015, 12:55:09 AM »
With Fellella, how do you manage the initiative swing? I.e. I trigger the Jinx on my final quickcast, get initiative, then cast something on my first quickcast. Maybe also play a Jinx from your mage on a Quickcast, or just not worry about it?

Typically I'll play Jinx with Fellella when I have initiative next turn but most of the time, at least with wizard, the goal is either to keep aggressive books off you to stabilize or gain tempo for lethal damage. That depends on what opening you are using of course. In Druid I would use it mostly to keep them off my tree, the longer tree lives the more likely you are to win.