November 26, 2021, 05:55:48 PM

Author Topic: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?  (Read 8111 times)

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« on: September 27, 2015, 09:35:45 PM »
I used to think that Mage wars games between two equally skilled experienced players in general should take no more than an hour and a half, and that the 75 min time limit at tournaments was enough time for a long game deck to at least stabilize and gain the upper hand in a way that would decide the match. However, I just watched a very close 3+ hour game between the most recent gen con champ and another very skilled player on octgn.

How much of an effect does the time limit really have on the metagame? Is there any way to solve this problem without going over allotted time at conventions? I already have an idea but I'd like to hear other people's ideas first.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 09:40:45 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 11:21:44 PM »
That game was the mage wars equivalent of two assassins running out of ammo in their rifles, both getting disarmed of their pistols, having their knives break, and resorting to picking up furniture to use to bludgeon each other to death. It was intense, but thankfully rare.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 11:51:09 PM »
i like long games...

i agree that normally, if each player uses his opportunity well, a game shoudn't go for more than 2 hours.
but a time limit will allways close the possibie strattegies! a waiting spellbokk, a "surprise for later" spellbook, etc. will be disadvantage... nobody will play them, and everybody will play knowing there opponent won't play such spellbooks, that closes the game.

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2015, 12:04:38 AM »
That game was the mage wars equivalent of two assassins running out of ammo in their rifles, both getting disarmed of their pistols, having their knives break, and resorting to picking up furniture to use to bludgeon each other to death. It was intense, but thankfully rare.

So the Mage Wars equivalent to using "struggle"?

It's not very effective?

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2015, 02:15:14 AM »
Another thing to note. Games on octgn are imo a LOT slower then in real life. Even though octgn improved a lot it will never be as fluent as in reality. I think that game could easely be 30 min faster then.

And indeed, what ringkichard said.  :P
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 02:52:08 AM by Halewijn »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 05:48:17 AM »
That game was the mage wars equivalent of two assassins running out of ammo in their rifles, both getting disarmed of their pistols, having their knives break, and resorting to picking up furniture to use to bludgeon each other to death. It was intense, but thankfully rare.

So the Mage Wars equivalent to using "struggle"?

It's not very effective?

LOL!

Anyways, the idea I was thinking of was to have a time limit for the whole tournament and for planning phases, but not for matches. And to do everything in Swiss format because if you run out of time in Swiss format then the person with the highest win:loss ratio by that point is the winner, but if you do the last round in bracket form, then you can't afford to run out of time early because then you would have no winner at all. I was thinking that each player's win:loss ratio could be converted into a score, where a win=+1 and a loss=-1. You could have it so that anyone who descends into the negatives would be eliminated if you want.

I mean the way it is now, I think a lot of people would avoid using longer game playstyles because even if it's unlikely to be a naturally 2+ hour game that gets cut short to 75 min and making you lose a game that you might otherwise have won, the fact that this rare occurrence can and does happen means that using longer game playstyles is always going to be at least a little risky.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 05:53:43 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 07:42:57 AM »
I'm still a fan of the following : 3 rounds of overtime, keeping track of damage dealt each round (taking into account life gain and healing). The player who takes the most damage each round awards their opponent a point. First to 2 points wins. Or, of course, you can still kill your opponent outright.

Alternate versions include just taking the total damage done during 3 rounds of overtime, and that'd be fine, too.

I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 08:16:11 AM »
Keeping things realistic, any events that are ran at a convention will need to have round time limits. The question has always been what is the smoothest way to implement them. No matter how you do a tiebreaker you're showing favor to one style of book or another, and need to be aware of that. We want to have the best convention experience possible in our events, but we also don't want a single tournament to eat up three days and prevent players from experiencing the rest of the convention.

Just things to keep in mind.

Mystery

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1856
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 08:21:17 AM »
increase the time to 90min or more, so what the thunderdome avg is. and keep in mind games take longer there do to all the do you want to reveal x questions and rolling dice computation time....

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 08:29:31 AM »
I think one of the best things Thunderdome can do is not have a time limit. They aren't encumbered by physical limitations. That being said I think our fantastic organizers are doing a great job so far.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2015, 08:59:59 AM »

Keeping things realistic, any events that are ran at a convention will need to have round time limits. The question has always been what is the smoothest way to implement them. No matter how you do a tiebreaker you're showing favor to one style of book or another, and need to be aware of that. We want to have the best convention experience possible in our events, but we also don't want a single tournament to eat up three days and prevent players from experiencing the rest of the convention.

Just things to keep in mind.

Why not use 2-3 minute planning phase time limit and a total tournament time limit with elimination for people whose losses exceed their victories? If you make everything in Swiss format like I suggested then there's likely significantly less risk of the tournament ending without a winner. You could also use chess timers or something for this. You said that any and all solutions will unbalance the metagame to either favor aggro or control because they have to have time limits specifically for rounds, as opposed to phases or a whole tournament. If you have to spread it out over multiple days, couldn't you just not count unfinished games? Even if Arcane Wonders does not decide to implement another method for keeping tournaments within allotted time, I would still like to know what exactly is unfeasible about the solution I proposed in the rather unlikely case I ever manage to grow my current playgroup to 10 or more people. Thanks!
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

SharkBait

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 701
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2015, 09:30:56 AM »
I'm personally a fan of (taking GenCon as an example) of a 3 day tournament with 4 rounds of swiss with a Top 4 playing an elimination style bracket on the final day. Days 1 + 2 would be shorter blocks than the current setup (2 rounds each day with a 120 min time limit/round) enabling people to still play other games throughout the Con since we're only taking up ~4 hrs in the morning (or whenever) of each day. It's easier, at least in my opinion, to plan around. I've also almost never played a tournament match that ran to time, with my most recent Thunderdome match being the longest I've had (just under 90 mins.)  I recognize that my style of play is faster than most, but 120 min time-limit still seems pretty doable for the majority of builds.
  • Favourite Mage: Adramelech Warlock
When in doubt, kill it with fire

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2015, 12:39:05 PM »
There was some slow-ish play during a few of the planning phases, but overall the reason the game too so long was that it went 30+ rounds. Hanma went through all 3 of his Wizard's Towers, all of his Mana Crystals, Nearly all his attack spells, etc. I think Drefan cast all his plants, lost his tree, lost most of his plants, all his walls, and his flowers, too.

It was only conceded when they determined that Nick still had a Dissolve to put on his Mage Wand, while Drefan did not, and nick could therefore, eventually, remove all Drefan's armor and win the inevitable punching match that was going to come when they both ran completely out of cards. Out of their 40+ books, they'd both played at least 30 spells.

Also, exhaustion. You wouldn't think a boardgame like this could be that taxing, but there's a reason Magnus Carlson is in such great shape.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 03:47:58 PM »
I just thought of another approach to solving this problem. In the Mage wars storyline, the Mage Wars institution has existed for hundreds of years and the Etherians certainly would have faced this same dilemma. Different duels can vary greatly in length, and spectators have their own lives and schedules. But if they introduce a rule that gives an advantage to aggro over control, nations that tend to have more controlling mages like Sortilege with their wizards, Westlock with their priestesses, or the Wychwood with their Druids would take issue. There would have to be a solution to this in order to maintain international trust in the integrity and fairness of the Mage Wars. And they need to have enough time in a day for every Mage to fight who wants to, because they all have the right to trial by combat and it's also used for civil disputes, and they need time for tournaments as well. So, what would the Etherians do when faced with this dilemma?

They would either have to build more arenas (get more tables), or find some other way to make the matches shorter, or a way to conduct more matches in a smaller amount of space. And I think I might have just thought of a possible way to do that. I'll be right back.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2015, 03:58:11 AM »
I think even a 3 hour matchup would only be 30 min in real time. It's not like all the creatures are waiting because it's not their turn. During 1 game round all those tings are happening almost at the same time.  :P
Upkeep phases and planning phases do not exist, the regenerate is just a continues process as is the planning of spells.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.