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Author Topic: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?  (Read 8144 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 07:06:27 AM »

I think even a 3 hour matchup would only be 30 min in real time. It's not like all the creatures are waiting because it's not their turn. During 1 game round all those tings are happening almost at the same time.  :P
Upkeep phases and planning phases do not exist, the regenerate is just a continues process as is the planning of spells.

This is a VERY good point. But I also suspect the number of mages in Etheria at any given period of fictional time far exceeds the number of Mage wars players in real life, so time could quite likely still be an issue in Etheria.
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Zuberi

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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 09:18:38 AM »
Quote from: Sailor Vulcan
They would either have to build more arenas (get more tables), or find some other way to make the matches shorter, or a way to conduct more matches in a smaller amount of space. And I think I might have just thought of a possible way to do that. I'll be right back.

I am very curious what your proposed solution is, as this has been something of a thorn for the tournament scene since the beginning. I think the current solution is perfectly fine, but it's always good to hear new ideas and see if better options are out there.

I do worry though with your comparisons to how it would actually work in Etheria that you may be conflating an issue of needing to accommodate multiple mages with the problem of needing to accommodate the same mages multiple times. Building more arenas (getting more tables) and conducting more matches in a smaller space only serve to allow more mages to fight simultaneously, but we aren't having an issue accommodating the number of players simultaneously. Our issue is in allowing the same group of mages the ability to have multiple matches in a row, which thus far the only solution you or anyone else has proposed to do this is to make the matches shorter in time. I have trouble conceiving that another solution may exist.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 11:37:31 AM »
Quote from: Sailor Vulcan
They would either have to build more arenas (get more tables), or find some other way to make the matches shorter, or a way to conduct more matches in a smaller amount of space. And I think I might have just thought of a possible way to do that. I'll be right back.

I am very curious what your proposed solution is, as this has been something of a thorn for the tournament scene since the beginning. I think the current solution is perfectly fine, but it's always good to hear new ideas and see if better options are out there.

I do worry though with your comparisons to how it would actually work in Etheria that you may be conflating an issue of needing to accommodate multiple mages with the problem of needing to accommodate the same mages multiple times. Building more arenas (getting more tables) and conducting more matches in a smaller space only serve to allow more mages to fight simultaneously, but we aren't having an issue accommodating the number of players simultaneously. Our issue is in allowing the same group of mages the ability to have multiple matches in a row, which thus far the only solution you or anyone else has proposed to do this is to make the matches shorter in time. I have trouble conceiving that another solution may exist.

Good point, the analogy kind of breaks down there.

What I was thinking was that there might be a way to make a shorter game that was faster, balanced, didn't require any cards to be banned, basically the same cards, very similar or the same strategies, but in a way that doesn't take so long. The different rules, stats and map features interact in different ways to make the game either more or less balanced and either shorter or longer. Pretty much everything in the game can be categorized by whether it increases, decreases or doesn't affect game length. For instance, a smaller arena makes the game shorter. Setup rounds make the game longer. Most terrains do both, but likely tend to increase game length more than they decrease it. Higher life makes game longer, shorter life makes game shorter.

So the question is how can one make tradeoffs between all these kinds of variables to decrease game length without decreasing balance?

I've started brainstorming how do accomplish this on this thread: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16037.0

Basically what I'm looking at right now is 3x3 zones arena, a secret passageway (probably with the ends on opposite side zones rather than corners), 1 setup round, and probably a terrain or two from battlegrounds, potentially of the players' choice before the game. I'm hoping this will be faster while still preserving balance and strategic diversity.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 11:39:10 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2015, 05:23:14 AM »
Doesn't Domination mode work to solve this issue? The right mix of orbs and arena layout would provide another option to win which should result in faster matches.

Has Domination mode been tried in tournament play yet?
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 09:01:58 AM »
it has not been used in a Tournament yet, to my knowledge. It's something Scott and I have talked about. Regardless we felt that if you wanted to speed up a game, having some form of scenario objectives could be good for speeding up the tournament scene.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2015, 10:56:30 AM »
I think the important question that needs to be answered is this: not counting wizards, how likely are control decks to win a tournament anytime soon compared to aggro decks? How viable/competitive is control relative to aggro in tournament settings using the current rules?
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2015, 01:59:25 PM »
Druid does well against Forcemaster, both Beastmasters, both Warlords, Priest and Priestess, Necro, etc.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2015, 02:12:33 PM »

Druid does well against Forcemaster, both Beastmasters, both Warlords, Priest and Priestess, Necro, etc.

And just to clarify, she does that well using the current tournament rules, including the 75 min time limit? If so, my worry is that this might be a result of the perception of her power of people who play her on octgn where there are no time limits, and that this perception has carried over into offline organized play, causing the more skilled players to use her more, when they would be even more likely to win using a faster Mage.
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2015, 02:38:58 PM »
As the only druid at gen con, I only had one match go to time, and I only lost one game which was on a bad rules call.

Druid can play aggro.

I have also noticed that games on Octgn seen to take forever. I can't even watch the OCTGN videos because i'm bored out of my mind because they are so slow. I also Don't play on OCTGN for the same reason.
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2015, 02:48:09 PM »

I have also noticed that games on Octgn seen to take forever. I can't even watch the OCTGN videos because i'm bored out of my mind because they are so slow. I also Don't play on OCTGN for the same reason.

I've noticed this too.  People seem to take their time while playing on octgn. Lots of "planning" and "thinking".  Definitely extends the time by a bit.  but I disagree with it being boring.  I still love watching the matches because of how creative everyone is.
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2015, 03:10:14 PM »
Druid can play aggro.
If your not running an Agro/Control build then in my opinion, you are not doing it right.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2015, 03:24:54 PM »

As the only druid at gen con, I only had one match go to time, and I only lost one game which was on a bad rules call.

Druid can play aggro.

I have also noticed that games on Octgn seen to take forever. I can't even watch the OCTGN videos because i'm bored out of my mind because they are so slow. I also Don't play on OCTGN for the same reason.

Yes except we weren't talking about aggro Druid. We were talking about how well control mages in general perform under the current offline tournament rules relative to aggro mages. You named a druid as an example, I assumed you were talking about a control Druid since otherwise what you said would not be relevant to the question I asked.

Yeah I think you're right a lot of people play too slowly on octgn, including me when I'm tired. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm wondering whether part of the reason I take too long to think sometimes during a game of Mage wars despite being an experienced player is because my opponent takes too long to think and my mind starts to disengage and have more trouble concentrating or something. I think we should start using the timers on octgn. I'm pretty sure there's a feature for that.

Now I'm actually really curious how much shorter games would be if there were 2-3 minute time limits on the planning phase, 1 min for every other phase in the ready stage, and 1 minute time limit for each period of inactivity during the action stage. Did Hanma or Driffen ever take more than 3 minutes in a planning phase during their thunderdome match?
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2015, 03:26:17 PM »
turn 3 - 4 Raptor vines coming at you is pretty aggro

but the druid is almost always the focus of people talking control builds.

The druid is typically a slower mage.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2015, 03:31:01 PM »
Druid can play aggro.
If your not running an Agro/Control build then in my opinion, you are not doing it right.

Um, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I think I can guess. All builds require offense and defense, and sometimes you'll need to win a bit earlier or a bit later in the game depending on the matchup. Playstyle in Mage wars very clearly exists on a spectrum, and the words "aggro" and "control" are approximations which I use to refer to strategies that are respectively "more likely to win earlier in the game" and "more likely to win later in the game". Although it would be better if we started using different words than aggro and control so as not to confuse new players who might be familiar with other customizable strategy games where aggro and control have a slightly similar but still very different meaning.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 03:33:21 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Is the time limit at tournaments problematic after all?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2015, 11:23:02 PM »
what does agro mean?
what does control mean?