May 16, 2022, 11:11:59 PM

Author Topic: joined strength  (Read 15972 times)

sIKE

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2016, 04:32:00 PM »
I think technically what is happening in the Apply Damages and Effect step is that you are transferring 1 (the first 1 technically) of the points of damage that was rolled and applying directly to the Mage, instead of applying the point of damage to the target creature first and then transferring it to the Mage.

I understand how you feel, I lost a "May" and "up to 3" last week....
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Kharhaz

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2016, 04:47:27 PM »
@iNano78
Perhaps this shall satisfy you. If you look at page 25 of the Rulebook v4, you will see that by all definitions the attack did Hit the creature. This is true even if all blanks were rolled, or all damage was absorbed by armor, or the damage was transferred elsewhere. The creature was hit by the attack.

However, the trigger for Rod of the Arcanum is that it damage a Non-Mage creature. Mage Wars is very simple when it comes to determining things like this. If you put damage on something, then it took damage. If you don't, then it didn't. No non-mage creatures received any damage from the attack, therefore the Rod does not trigger even though it did successfully hit it's target. Hitting the target was not it's trigger condition. Since it did hit though, it will cause things like a Damage Barrier attack still, similar to the X-Wing ship losing stealth.

OK, but look at the trigger for Joined Strength.  It says "... Whenever [this creature] is attacked and receives damage, you must transfer 1 of that damage to your Mage instead. ..."

If the creature wasn't dealt damage by the Rod, then no damage would have been transferred to the Mage.  For Joined Strength to transfer damage, the creature must have "received damage."  Otherwise, Joined Strength wouldn't trigger.   If Joined Strength triggered, then the creature must have received damage, and thus the Rod also triggers, since it has the same condition.  In other words, there must be a point where the creature received damage, at which time both the Rod and Joined Strength trigger, then the damage itself gets transferred to the Mage (when damage and effects are applied).

Consider:

Rod of A deal rolls 1 normal damage on a creature with joined strength and one health remaining; Does it get destroyed immediately before joined strength triggers the life saving damage transfer?


ringkichard

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 06:08:54 PM »
Since it is not available in the database, here is the effect text of the two cards:
Quote from: Joined Strength
This creature gains Melee +1. Whenever it is attacked and receives damage you must transfer 1 of that damage to your mage instead. If this creature is destroyed you may pay 1 mana to move Joined Strength to a new target in your zone.
Quote from: Rod of the Arcanum
When this attack damages an enemy Non-Mage creature, that creature's controller loses 1 mana (if he has any to lose). If this Mage is level 5 or higher, Rod of the Arcanum rolls an additional attack die.

The wording is a little funny on Joined Strength, which may be confusing matters. Hypertechnically, it's weird to transfer damage instead. Previously, you could transfer damage that had been dealt, like Lifebond +X does in Druid's Treebond ability, or you could perhaps redirect an attack or its damage like Reverse Attack does, but it does seem a bit strange to use the verb "transfer" this way.

But the key, as others have said, is the word "instead". In that context, Joined Strength transfers one damage to the mage, instead of letting the attack deal it to the creature. It's not even clear to me that the rules do (or do not) consider that damage "dealt" or even caused by the attack. It may just be damage transferred from an attack to a mage.
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Zuberi

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2016, 06:25:21 PM »
The wording is a little funny on Joined Strength, which may be confusing matters. Hypertechnically, it's weird to transfer damage instead. Previously, you could transfer damage that had been dealt, like Lifebond +X does in Druid's Treebond ability, or you could perhaps redirect an attack or its damage like Reverse Attack does, but it does seem a bit strange to use the verb "transfer" this way.

But the key, as others have said, is the word "instead". In that context, Joined Strength transfers one damage to the mage, instead of letting the attack deal it to the creature. It's not even clear to me that the rules do (or do not) consider that damage "dealt" or even caused by the attack. It may just be damage transferred from an attack to a mage.

I agree entirely, and we might still need a ruling whether the damage dealt to the mage still counts as coming from the initial attack.

OK, but look at the trigger for Joined Strength.  It says "... Whenever [this creature] is attacked and receives damage, you must transfer 1 of that damage to your Mage instead. ..."

You have a point. The wording is a bit weird. However, we have an official response from Laddinfance now that confirms the creature never receives damage because it is transferred instead (see below). Thus, the trigger for the Rod never occurs. I will agree that the card could be cleaned up to make it's intention clearer, but I think we all now know the intention.

Instead is a replacement. So, if you only dealt a single point of damage to a creature with joined strength, then it would never receive that damage as it's put on your Mage instead.

You only apply the armor for the creature and not also for your Mage.

exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2016, 12:01:29 AM »
I agree, the card is not but Laddinfance is clear: the damage goes directly to the mage.

About the source of this damage coming to the mage, it could be:
1) the weapon
2) joined strength
3) nowhere
and is it a direct damage?

this could be important for other efffects (imunity to the weapon type, for exemple)

Laddinfance

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2016, 07:55:40 AM »
The damage comes from the attack. Joined Strength is just changing the destination.

jacksmack

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 08:51:11 AM »
How does vampirism interact with joined strength?

ringkichard

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2016, 09:29:03 AM »
Quote
Vampiric (Attack Trait) When this attack causes damage to a Living creature, the attacker heals (removes) up to half the damage caused (round up). If the attack does more damage than the targetís Life total, the excess damage does not count for healing. If the attack makes multiple attacks during the same attack action, it gains this bonus only for the first attack it makes. The Vampiric trait does not stack. If an attack places a condition on a creature which counts as damage (such as the Tainted conditon), the conditon does not count as damage dealt by the attack. Therefore, it will not count as damage dealt for the Vampiric Trait.

Looks like it doesn't change anything.
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exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2016, 10:09:42 AM »
The damage comes from the attack. Joined Strength is just changing the destination.
thanks!

Zuberi

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2016, 08:37:54 PM »
How does vampirism interact with joined strength?

Adding to what ringkichard said, the fact that you are dividing the damage between multiple objects appears to be irrelevant currently, given a strict reading of the Vampiric trait. It is all still coming from a single attack, so you total up the damage, divide in half, and round up to determine how much you heal.

The only way this would interact with Vampiric is if either the animal or the mage was non-living, which is not currently possible. Speculating on this scenario, I would assume any damage dealt to the non-living creature would be disregarded when determining how much to heal, but it seems unlikely that a non-living animal would be printed any time soon, and even less likely for a non-living mage. So, this speculation isn't a huge concern yet.

exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2016, 11:56:24 PM »
How does vampirism interact with joined strength?

Adding to what ringkichard said, the fact that you are dividing the damage between multiple objects appears to be irrelevant currently, given a strict reading of the Vampiric trait. It is all still coming from a single attack, so you total up the damage, divide in half, and round up to determine how much you heal.

The only way this would interact with Vampiric is if either the animal or the mage was non-living, which is not currently possible. Speculating on this scenario, I would assume any damage dealt to the non-living creature would be disregarded when determining how much to heal, but it seems unlikely that a non-living animal would be printed any time soon, and even less likely for a non-living mage. So, this speculation isn't a huge concern yet.
if the damage would be dealt to the creature first and then transfered (what it is not), this damage could count 2 times for the vampiric trait!
 ;D

ringkichard

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2016, 10:57:43 AM »
Zombified Animals in Arena could fail to trigger Vampiric, I guess?
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RomeoXero

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2016, 12:17:03 PM »
But I believe joined strength is Beastmaster only and rise again is dark mage only, so you'll never have the two meet in the middle as one mage will never have both.
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exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2016, 12:43:26 PM »
the problem could happen: in a 2vs2 game, if a beastmaster dies and gives the control of his animals to his buddy necromancer!

iNano78

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2016, 12:55:51 PM »
the problem could happen: in a 2vs2 game, if a beastmaster dies and gives the control of his animals to his buddy necromancer!

Or - same team - a Necromancer (or Warlock) uses Reanimate or Rise Again on an animal, then the Beastmaster casts Joined Strength on it.
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