January 27, 2021, 05:03:00 am

Author Topic: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers  (Read 305496 times)

Reddicediaries

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #255 on: July 04, 2016, 07:53:17 pm »
If the Paladin has their own Spawnpoint, would they be allowed to have both that and the Temple to allow one to build mana while the other deploys...might make an interesting strategy.

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Laddinfance

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #256 on: July 04, 2016, 08:19:02 pm »
The Paladin's spawnpoint is easily the most unique one in the game. I may set up a poll, but right now I'm looking though the options, now that you've seen the ability card.

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #257 on: July 04, 2016, 08:23:02 pm »
The Paladin's spawnpoint is easily the most unique one in the game. I may set up a poll, but right now I'm looking though the options, now that you've seen the ability card.
Oh, so many options! Maybe it can summon Holy and War (to a degree)!
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #258 on: July 04, 2016, 11:13:37 pm »
I am so stoked about both mages. I can't wait to start building books for them both. I see myself leaning towards Siren more.
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Zuberi

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #259 on: July 04, 2016, 11:32:13 pm »
If the Paladin has their own Spawnpoint, would they be allowed to have both that and the Temple to allow one to build mana while the other deploys...might make an interesting strategy.

Indeed

Nothing in the rules prevents you from having more than one spawnpoint, nor from deploying from multiple spawnpoints. For example, a Priestess could have Temple of Asyra and Battle Forge and deploy from both in the same round. So, yes the Paladin could use multiple spawnpoints.

Bluebaron

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #260 on: July 05, 2016, 02:45:18 am »
Great spoilers. I can totally imagine that the siren rocks. For the paladin however I am a little sceptical. But maybe I first have to see more out of his arsenal. Therefore I would love to see the paladin's spawnpoint as the next spoiler. Or any other card that helps me to unterstand the powers of the paladin better.

Reddicediaries

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #261 on: July 05, 2016, 08:22:52 am »
Great spoilers. I can totally imagine that the siren rocks. For the paladin however I am a little sceptical. But maybe I first have to see more out of his arsenal. Therefore I would love to see the paladin's spawnpoint as the next spoiler. Or any other card that helps me to unterstand the powers of the paladin better.
Why do you think he's not on par with th to the other mages? He has some much versatility.
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #262 on: July 05, 2016, 08:40:05 am »
Also, I just noticed that the siren isn't opposed to any school. This is slightly concerning.
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #263 on: July 05, 2016, 08:57:32 am »
Great spoilers. I can totally imagine that the siren rocks. For the paladin however I am a little sceptical. But maybe I first have to see more out of his arsenal. Therefore I would love to see the paladin's spawnpoint as the next spoiler. Or any other card that helps me to unterstand the powers of the paladin better.
Why do you think he's not on par with th to the other mages? He has some much versatility.

I am a little bit worried about his special abilities. Their use appear very situational to me. The auras only work in the zone of the paladin. They seem also very expensive (6 and 8 valor) for what they do. Retribution aura for example. How often in a game will you profit from this aura.? Also he only has 9 channeling. I don't hope we are getting another bloodwave warlord here. But I think it is far too early to come to that conclusion. I really love the combinations of schools he is trained in. Nice twist from what we have seen so far from other mages.

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #264 on: July 05, 2016, 09:10:29 am »
I am a little bit worried about his special abilities. Their use appear very situational to me. The auras only work in the zone of the paladin. They seem also very expensive (6 and 8 valor) for what they do. Retribution aura for example. How often in a game will you profit from this aura.? Also he only has 9 channeling. I don't hope we are getting another bloodwave warlord here. But I think it is far too early to come to that conclusion. I really love the combinations of schools he is trained in. Nice twist from what we have seen so far from other mages.

I assume we haven't seen all the ways he can gain Valor (e.g. perhaps he has equipment or enchantments that let him gain Valor among other benefits).  As for channeling 9, most mages have channeling 9, so...

Also, I just noticed that the siren isn't opposed to any school. This is slightly concerning.

That is interesting.  As far as training goes, she's generally worse than the Wizard, who can be trained in Water + Arcane (vs. Water + spells with Pirate and Song subtypes for the Siren), assuming there are fewer and less flexible Pirate and Song spells than Arcane spells.  That said, she has a conditional Regenerate 1, which is roughly on par with the Wizard's Voltaric Shield in terms of having a built-in protection that is pretty easy to activate (although the Siren's is conditional on having Aquatic terrain, which can be replaced with other terrain; it's kind of like the Druid's Treebond ability).  Her Siren's Call ability is also conditional, as it requires your opponent to provide you with a non-Psychic Immune creature within 2 zones OR a friendly Aquatic creature to give Melee +2 that can't stray very far from her side.  So I see her more like the Druid or Forcemaster, who each have powerful abilities but they tend to be dependent on other things or force you into particular strategies and restrict flexibility - so there's something she happens to be really good at, but isn't particularly flexible.

So... I see her as being similar to the Druid in terms of having conditional abilities that provide protection (regeneration) and board control (Druid's vines vs Siren's call).  But yes, it is a little surprising that the Siren has no triple-cost school.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 09:17:35 am by iNano78 »
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Laddinfance

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #265 on: July 06, 2016, 10:12:45 am »
Today is A Call to Arms! Check it out.

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #266 on: July 06, 2016, 10:29:46 am »
Wow I'm loving it  ;D

Seems like a very good gamble to take, but I think that the Paladin is going to be an absolute monster on the game board

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #267 on: July 06, 2016, 11:02:52 am »
Hmm .. [mwcard=MXSTX2FFJ02]Altar of Carnage[/mwcard] can be used to pump mana into the Banner, but would it be worth it? Maybe if you plopped them both down right before an offensive with a few soldiers that you can then turn into a blitz with two holy creatures? Oh! I just realized that the Paladin is the only mage who can use [mwcard=MXSTX2FFJ02]Altar of Carnage[/mwcard] to pump mana into [mwcard=MW1J23]Temple of Asyra[/mwcard].

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #268 on: July 06, 2016, 01:01:12 pm »
The Paladin's level 2 training in War surprises me a bit.  I figured thematically he would be a more even balance of holy and war (3 each).  But that's a minor issue, and I can understand why Arcane Wonders would want to avoid that for balance reasons. 

However, I am worried about the Siren.  She is the first mage to have 0 training in any primary school.  That is a HUGE deal.  There are exactly 8 existing cards in the Water school (not counting promos).  Of those cards, only the [mwcard=MW1Q08]Elemental Wand[/mwcard] is higher than level one in Water, and two of the other cards ([mwcard=MWBG1J04]Raincloud[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNI04]Renewing Rain[/mwcard]) are comprised of more than just the Water school.  I can understand not giving her full Mind school access, but I really think she deserved training in the psychic sub-type. 

So, what does she get to make up for this extremely limited card pool?  Training in pirates and songs.  Songs are a completely new sub-type of card (so this is a blind guess), but I can't imagine more than 2-3 songs per primary school.  That leaves pirates.  I can think of only a handful of non-creature pirate cards (including a pirate ship conjuration of some sort).  Even if the Paladin vs Siren expansion consists of 75% Water, Song, and Pirate cards, I don't think the Siren will have an adequate card pool compared to other mages (especially the Paladin, who will have access to the majority of both the War and Holy schools).  Every other mage in the game has in-school cards from multiple expansions to work with at this point.  But even if the Siren does start out with a competitive card pool, how exactly are Arcane Wonders going to keep expanding it so that it stays competitive?  Are they going to keep adding Water school cards just for the Siren with every future expansion after this? 

Furthermore, the Siren controlling pirates doesn't make a whole lot of sense thematically (at least to me).  In real-life myths Sirens were hated and feared by pirates and sailors, not seen as allies (that tends to happen when you are supposedly responsible for tons of shipwrecks).  Pairing them up is kind of like giving the Druid training in Fire because forest fires sweep through tons of forests all the time in real life.  Sure, there's a connection, but it's not a logical pairing.  Grouping up pirates and the Siren also means we won't be getting a Pirate mage (War & Water) in the future, which I think is a missed opportunity. 

On top of that, she possesses 9 channeling while two of her abilities require mana to use.  The closest comparison to this is the Wizard, who also needs mana for his abilities but possesses 10 channeling.  I get the feeling that the Siren is going to be mana-starved very frequently.  Her third ability (regenerate 1 when in water) is decent but situational (Teleport might be a very good counter to her).  Lastly, there's the issue of her health.  She is tied for last place at 30 health with the Druid (a mage who realistically has 10 channeling so long as her chosen tree is alive). 

So to summarize: the Siren will probably have a more limited natural card pool compared to other mages, leading to less efficient spellpoint usage.  She has low channeling combined with mana-intensive abilities.  And she is also one of the most frail mages to date.  I want to love her, but at this point I remain thoroughly unconvinced. 

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #269 on: July 06, 2016, 01:31:13 pm »
The Paladin's level 2 training in War surprises me a bit.  I figured thematically he would be a more even balance of holy and war (3 each).  But that's a minor issue, and I can understand why Arcane Wonders would want to avoid that for balance reasons. 

However, I am worried about the Siren.  She is the first mage to have 0 training in any primary school.  That is a HUGE deal.  There are exactly 8 existing cards in the Water school (not counting promos).  Of those cards, only the [mwcard=MW1Q08]Elemental Wand[/mwcard] is higher than level one in Water, and two of the other cards ([mwcard=MWBG1J04]Raincloud[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNI04]Renewing Rain[/mwcard]) are comprised of more than just the Water school.  I can understand not giving her full Mind school access, but I really think she deserved training in the psychic sub-type. 

So, what does she get to make up for this extremely limited card pool?  Training in pirates and songs.  Songs are a completely new sub-type of card (so this is a blind guess), but I can't imagine more than 2-3 songs per primary school.  That leaves pirates.  I can think of only a handful of non-creature pirate cards (including a pirate ship conjuration of some sort).  Even if the Paladin vs Siren expansion consists of 75% Water, Song, and Pirate cards, I don't think the Siren will have an adequate card pool compared to other mages (especially the Paladin, who will have access to the majority of both the War and Holy schools).  Every other mage in the game has in-school cards from multiple expansions to work with at this point.  But even if the Siren does start out with a competitive card pool, how exactly are Arcane Wonders going to keep expanding it so that it stays competitive?  Are they going to keep adding Water school cards just for the Siren with every future expansion after this? 

Furthermore, the Siren controlling pirates doesn't make a whole lot of sense thematically (at least to me).  In real-life myths Sirens were hated and feared by pirates and sailors, not seen as allies (that tends to happen when you are supposedly responsible for tons of shipwrecks).  Pairing them up is kind of like giving the Druid training in Fire because forest fires sweep through tons of forests all the time in real life.  Sure, there's a connection, but it's not a logical pairing.  Grouping up pirates and the Siren also means we won't be getting a Pirate mage (War & Water) in the future, which I think is a missed opportunity. 

On top of that, she possesses 9 channeling while two of her abilities require mana to use.  The closest comparison to this is the Wizard, who also needs mana for his abilities but possesses 10 channeling.  I get the feeling that the Siren is going to be mana-starved very frequently.  Her third ability (regenerate 1 when in water) is decent but situational (Teleport might be a very good counter to her).  Lastly, there's the issue of her health.  She is tied for last place at 30 health with the Druid (a mage who realistically has 10 channeling so long as her chosen tree is alive). 

So to summarize: the Siren will probably have a more limited natural card pool compared to other mages, leading to less efficient spellpoint usage.  She has low channeling combined with mana-intensive abilities.  And she is also one of the most frail mages to date.  I want to love her, but at this point I remain thoroughly unconvinced.

Unless you've seen the whole set (which I haven't), there are a lot of assumptions here.

Training in Water provides access to some of the most commonly used utility spells, namely Dissolve/Crumble, Rust, Acid Ball and Surging Wave.  Yes, the Druid also has access to those PLUS the entire Nature school, but it's also one of the main reasons Wizard just lost the ability to choose Water as his second school of training.  And just like every other school, there's no reason Arcane Wonders can't include new Water spells (or Pirate or Song, for that matter) in future expansions.  There is almost always a new good card for every existing mage in every expansion thereafter (except maybe the Academy expansions; they tend to be more focused on one mage type, although Tangleroot and Slumber are exceptions).

Next, there are about to be a TON of water-school spells.  Have you been following the spoilers?  This is the expansion where Water shows up in force.  And some day we might see Frost damage type become a thing, which would also presumably fall within the Water school (although I guess it could be Nature, given how many Nature cards have the Frost -X trait)... so in general, i think the Siren will have plenty of spells she's trained in.  But I think something you're missing is that NOT being trained in a school doesn't make it outlawed; it merely makes it cost the standard double.  She's just as good as the Wizard (before or after yesterday) at casting out-of-school spells.  You make it sound like she's paying triple for all non-Water spells.  There's a HUGE difference.  All Mind spells cost the standard double, which means all the level 1 Mind spells cost 2 sbp's, etc... so... fill your boots and include as many Psychic spells as you want!

As for Pirate training, I also found it unexpected, but it makes sense in that she is effectively mind-controlling them.  Since you want her to have Psychic training, think of it like every Pirate has a free, permanent Mind Control on it.  Done.  These are just the Pirates that fell victim to her charms (and happen to be all the Pirates included in the game).  And notice that the Pirates that have been announced (including promos) don't have the Aquatic subtype, so while she is trained in them, they don't tend to gain any bonuses (that we know of yet).  The skeleton pirate looks much more at home in a Necromancer's book to me, as I see far more synergy there than in a Siren book... but then again, I haven't seen the whole expansion set yet, so I'll refrain from judging just yet.

Lastly, it's too early to be worried about her stats.  I'd be shocked if she didn't have cards that boost them in some way.  Druid has her treebond which is technically a mage ability but could have just been written on the Vine Tree spell card (but I get the impression the designers wanted to give a choice of which tree to play... although there seems to be an obviously best one at the moment), but i wouldn't be surprised if there is an Aquatic Terrain card, perhaps a "coral reef," that the Siren needs to protect that gives her +1 channeling and +X life, which  automatically combos nicely with her built-in Regenerate and other abilities, and which is analogous to Treebond without using up a mage ability.  Although maybe that would be too similar to the Druid (?).
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