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Author Topic: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers  (Read 305491 times)

Laddinfance

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #270 on: July 06, 2016, 01:39:15 pm »
Just a couple of notes.

Before PVS there are less than ten water spells. After PVS there are approximately 40. I might be off a little, but I did just count them the other day. This set makes the Water school huge.

Also, Shallow Sea needs to be considered when looking at the Siren. She can run six of them and that gives her a large area where it's harder to hit her, she regens, and she swings harder if she wants.

There are still a lot of things to see. Hopefully the picture will continue to become clearer.

iNano78

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #271 on: July 06, 2016, 03:37:18 pm »
Today is A Call to Arms! Check it out.

Regarding "Crusade Banner": It's cool, but I can't figure out why it doesn't instead read "Ranged attacks roll 2 fewer dice (to a minimum of 1) against Cursade Banner...." and simultaneously have the "Flame +2" trait.  Oh, I guess that would make it more susceptible to flame-based melee attacks (like many demons, Fire Elemental, Magma Golem, Adramelech Warlock's basic melee attack, Lash of Hellfire, etc) not to mention augments the d12 roll for Burns ... but that would be rather thematic, would it not? I mean, it makes sense that the forces of evil would be working hard to destroy something that could summon not 1 but 2 holy creatures!

It could even have "Aegis 2" vs Ranged attacks and "Flame +2"... So many ways to word something like this.  Or to have the exact effect it currently has , "Crusade Banner gains Aegis 2 against non-Flame Ranged attacks." In any case, it basically says "Fireball me!" 

One of the few times that [mwcard=MW1A04]Fireball[/mwcard] is strictly better than [mwcard=FWA02]Force Hammer[/mwcard] when attacking a Conjuration.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 03:39:23 pm by iNano78 »
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #272 on: July 06, 2016, 03:39:29 pm »
Cool card. Would be fun to have one turn where you summon a mini army of creatures!
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #273 on: July 06, 2016, 04:28:52 pm »
Today is A Call to Arms! Check it out.

Regarding "Crusade Banner": It's cool, but I can't figure out why it doesn't instead read "Ranged attacks roll 2 fewer dice (to a minimum of 1) against Cursade Banner...." and simultaneously have the "Flame +2" trait.  Oh, I guess that would make it more susceptible to flame-based melee attacks (like many demons, Fire Elemental, Magma Golem, Adramelech Warlock's basic melee attack, Lash of Hellfire, etc) not to mention augments the d12 roll for Burns ... but that would be rather thematic, would it not? I mean, it makes sense that the forces of evil would be working hard to destroy something that could summon not 1 but 2 holy creatures!

It could even have "Aegis 2" vs Ranged attacks and "Flame +2"... So many ways to word something like this.  Or to have the exact effect it currently has , "Crusade Banner gains Aegis 2 against non-Flame Ranged attacks." In any case, it basically says "Fireball me!" 

One of the few times that [mwcard=MW1A04]Fireball[/mwcard] is strictly better than [mwcard=FWA02]Force Hammer[/mwcard] when attacking a Conjuration.

Nothing against you, Nano, but I've often wondered in many fantasy games why people are all like "evil should get a bonus vs this good thing" and not "why doesn't a light attack actually do more against a Dark creature rather than just Non-living?" OR, more to the point of Crusade Banner, "Why doesn't flame/dark get a MINUS to attack this Holy Relic?

Shouldn't the holy guys want the demons dead too and calibrate their arsenal to be more effective?  Just a little pet peeve of mine in many fantasy game (and novel) worlds.  Why does evil get a bonus vs. good and not the other way around?

All of that aside.  You are exactly correct that the wording is so that flame based melee attacks don't automatically kill the thing.  This card is very cool for ramping up your Paladin's front (or BACK) line.  There are a good number of Holy creatures in Priestess Academy (and PvS) that can give you a huge tempo swing when "answering the call" of the Crusade Banner.

One interesting point is that the Paladin is the only mage that could have a legitimate reason to prepare two [mwcard=MW1I23]Rouse the Beast[/mwcard] in one turn!
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #274 on: July 06, 2016, 04:31:48 pm »
Unless you've seen the whole set (which I haven't), there are a lot of assumptions here.
Well, I did state in my post that I was making guesses and assumptions since we haven't seen the vast majority of the new cards. 

Before PVS there are less than ten water spells. After PVS there are approximately 40. I might be off a little, but I did just count them the other day. This set makes the Water school huge.
I'm not saying the Water school won't get a massive buff from the expansion, but you're looking at an almost non-existent school at the moment.  Let's go ahead and estimate that after the expansion the school has 40 cards.  Then, guessing completely blindly (because I have no idea how many song and pirate cards are included in the set), let's also add in 12 non-Water pirate cards and 12 non-Water song cards (which is probably being generous).  That gives the Siren a total (in-school) card pool of roughly 64 cards.  That sounds pretty good, but let's compare that to other mages.  The Priest/Priestess has a card pool of 39 Holy cards, based on the card database from this website.  But, that doesn't account for the new cards released in the Priestess Academy expansion (roughly 24, by my count).  It also doesn't account for the new Holy cards which the PvS expansion itself will bring.  Let's low-ball that and say 15 (6 Holy cards have already been spoiled).  That gives a rough total of 78 cards.  I'll go ahead and list some other Mages as well (ones which shouldn't be as affected by the release of PvS. 

Beastmaster = 69 Nature + 21 Academy (roughly) = 90
Warlock = 79 Dark + 18 Fire = 97
Necromancer = 79 Dark = 79
Forcemaster = 37 Mind = 37
Warlord = 17 Earth + 70 War = 87
(Errata'd) Wizard = 22 Air + 47 Arcane + 24 Academy (roughly) = 93

My point is that even with the massive influx of Water school cards, I fear Arcane Wonders is going to have to end up doing what they did with the Warlord: moving a secondary expansion forward so that the card pool is even somewhat on par with other schools.  The only mage with a more limited set of in-school cards is the Forcemaster, who also happens to belong to the only school which has not yet received any major expansions after its introduction in FvW.  This is the problem with waiting this long to really establish the Water school: most of the other schools are so far ahead that one expansion just can't cram enough cards in to equalize the balance.  Despite everything I just said, I'm not nearly as worried about her initial card variety as I am about how that card pool will be expanded down the line (I'll go into detail below). 

And just like every other school, there's no reason Arcane Wonders can't include new Water spells (or Pirate or Song, for that matter) in future expansions.  There is almost always a new good card for every existing mage in every expansion thereafter.

And some day we might see Frost damage type become a thing, which would also presumably fall within the Water school... so in general, i think the Siren will have plenty of spells she's trained in.  But I think something you're missing is that NOT being trained in a school doesn't make it outlawed; All Mind spells cost the standard double, which means all the level 1 Mind spells cost 2 sbp's, etc... so... fill your boots and include as many Psychic spells as you want!
Let's get Frost out of the way first.  The community knows of the next several upcoming Mage archetypes.  They will most likely be the Barbarian and Sorcerer first, followed by possibly a Shaman and some sort of Vampire.  Unless something changes drastically, the next alt pair of mages will be Forcemaster vs Wizard.  The next Battlegrounds expansion will be the Archmage.  None of those mages are very likely to be the long-awaited Frost mage or have any water training whatsoever (with the possible exception of the Vampire).  So even in the best-case scenario, the Siren will be waiting at least a good 2 years before another water mage is added. 

With that out of the way, sure, Arcane Wonders can add new cards for the Siren here and there in other expansions.  But the bulk of those expansions will always be dedicated towards helping out the new mages and the schools they belong to.  The introduction of the Necromancer helped out the Warlock.  The Druid helped out the Beastmaster.  That's why I really wish the Siren was trained in Psychic spells.  She could have leeched off of the upcoming Alt FvW set coming out eventually.  Instead, she shares practically no training overlap with any other existing or upcoming mage, meaning her card pool will almost inevitably become stale while other mages continue to acquire more new cards.  The Siren is the exact opposite of the original Wizard. 

You're right, not being trained in a school doesn't make it outlawed.  But it does drastically decrease efficiency with spellbook points (halves them, to be precise).  Additionally, most mages don't care very much about the school which they have to pay triple for (with the possible exception of the Warlord).  Warlocks don't need or particularly want most Holy spells because they don't synergize with their pre-existing strategies.  Same with the Druid: she rarely needs or wants fire or war spells (especially high-level ones).  I would actually prefer a Siren fully trained in Water and Mind with two triple-cost schools (Earth and War maybe?) (obviously she would continue to be trained in songs as well).  I don't expect anything to change at this point, but I wanted to share my concerns nonetheless. 

Lastly, it's too early to be worried about her stats.  I'd be shocked if she didn't have cards that boost them in some way.  ...I wouldn't be surprised if there is an Aquatic Terrain card, perhaps a "coral reef," that the Siren needs to protect that gives her +1 channeling and +X life, which  automatically combos nicely with her built-in Regenerate and other abilities, and which is analogous to Treebond without using up a mage ability.  Although maybe that would be too similar to the Druid (?).
Also, Shallow Sea needs to be considered when looking at the Siren. She can run six of them and that gives her a large area where it's harder to hit her, she regens, and she swings harder if she wants.

I doubt the devs would give the Siren something so close to another mage's ability, but who knows. 

The problem with Shallow Sea is that, (while a good card and reusable due to Cantrip) it costs 5 mana to use and only covers one space.  As I already brought up, mana is already kind of an issue.  How is the Siren supposed to have mana to use her abilities somewhat frequently, cover decent areas of the map with terrain so that she and her creatures can play to their aquatic strengths, and still have mana to actually summon and support a decent army of creatures?  Maybe I'll change my mind after seeing her spawnpoint or something else, but right now my feeling is that she needs a lot of set-up time and doesn't have the survivability to withstand an early rush, while other defensive mages can beat her through economy. 

Kharhaz

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #275 on: July 06, 2016, 04:52:01 pm »
I would actually prefer a Siren fully trained in Water and Mind with two triple-cost schools (Earth and War maybe?) (obviously she would continue to be trained in songs as well).  I don't expect anything to change at this point, but I wanted to share my concerns nonetheless.

Mind magic gives her access to a wide variety of pushes and telekinetic fluffed cards like dancing scimitar; not the direction they chose to go with for her.

The problem with Shallow Sea is that, (while a good card and reusable due to Cantrip) it costs 5 mana to use and only covers one space.  As I already brought up, mana is already kind of an issue.  How is the Siren supposed to have mana to use her abilities somewhat frequently, cover decent areas of the map with terrain so that she and her creatures can play to their aquatic strengths, and still have mana to actually summon and support a decent army of creatures?  Maybe I'll change my mind after seeing her spawnpoint or something else, but right now my feeling is that she needs a lot of set-up time and doesn't have the survivability to withstand an early rush, while other defensive mages can beat her through economy.

This is very similar to the "hesitation" from when the Druid was being slowly teased. You have to see her components and play her way.

All that to say, I wouldn't worry to much about card counts and school density; It's better down where it's wetter

Coshade

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #276 on: July 06, 2016, 05:16:50 pm »
Siren having less cards doesn't mean that she must be less competitive.
Personally I'm really happy that they are getting out a school that has so few but highly used cards.
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #277 on: July 06, 2016, 05:21:07 pm »
Mind magic gives her access to a wide variety of pushes and telekinetic fluffed cards like dancing scimitar; not the direction they chose to go with for her.

This is very similar to the "hesitation" from when the Druid was being slowly teased. You have to see her components and play her way.

All that to say, I wouldn't worry to much about card counts and school density; It's better down where it's wetter
I'm aware that the devs didn't want her to have access to everything in the Mind school, and I accept that (I was referencing it to say that even that idea would be preferable, not that it was ideal).  What I struggle with is giving the Siren the Pirate subtype instead of the Psychic one.  The Siren could use the additional card variety and the Psychic sub-type of the Mind school could use expanding anyway (a win-win).  But what's done is done. 

While we're on the subject of the druid, I would like to remind people of what happened to the Samara Tree.  It was a spoiler before the set, people thought it looked great and would open up new playstyles unique to the Druid, and.... no one (that I'm aware of) ever uses it because it's way too mana inefficient.  Things don't always work out in practice, and I'm slightly worried that something similar will happen to some of the Siren's cards. 

Gogolski

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #278 on: July 06, 2016, 05:29:50 pm »
It's better down where it's wetter
Thats what the sharkies and that naiga-familiar-that-channels-2-in-aquatic-terrain say...

Flooding the arena will be huge! It might be 5 mana/zone, but I imagine the disadvantages for enemy creatures and the buffs that it gives the siren's own creatures will level out any "crappy" stats on her own mage card. She can even call her enemies into the water. All the bleed+bloodthirsty-stuff that is part of her (shark-)arsenal will slow healing... All she needs to do is border her sea with bloodspine walls and call her enemies through those to be welcomed by the sharks that await behind them...

Kaarin

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #279 on: July 06, 2016, 06:01:48 pm »
We still haven't seen all the cards that interact with aquatic creatures. Don't forget that the Siren has aquatic subtype. Just take a look how much would the Warlord change if he had soldier subtype. Conquer, Altar of Carnage, Hidden Tunnels and other spells would then interact with the Warlord. So the Siren may be fragile at first, but after playing few spells she may be hard to kill.
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #280 on: July 06, 2016, 07:01:45 pm »
I don't think I'm overstepping any bounds by saying that giving her training in the psychic subtype was actually considered. She works fine as is and has plenty of tools in her arsenal as is. Playtesters and AW have seen her in practice and she does work in practice. Very well in fact.

iNano78

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #281 on: July 06, 2016, 10:06:35 pm »
Nothing against you, Nano, but I've often wondered in many fantasy games why people are all like "evil should get a bonus vs this good thing" and not "why doesn't a light attack actually do more against a Dark creature rather than just Non-living?" OR, more to the point of Crusade Banner, "Why doesn't flame/dark get a MINUS to attack this Holy Relic?

Shouldn't the holy guys want the demons dead too and calibrate their arsenal to be more effective?  Just a little pet peeve of mine in many fantasy game (and novel) worlds.  Why does evil get a bonus vs. good and not the other way around?

All of that aside.  You are exactly correct that the wording is so that flame based melee attacks don't automatically kill the thing.  This card is very cool for ramping up your Paladin's front (or BACK) line.  There are a good number of Holy creatures in Priestess Academy (and PvS) that can give you a huge tempo swing when "answering the call" of the Crusade Banner.

One interesting point is that the Paladin is the only mage that could have a legitimate reason to prepare two [mwcard=MW1I23]Rouse the Beast[/mwcard] in one turn!

Regarding good vs evil, there are holy spells that have bonuses vs Dark and/or undead, including Joseph Trublood and [mwcard=MW1C31]Samandriel, Angel of Light[/mwcard]. But I agree, more of the Light spells and attacks should work against Dark and not just undead.

As for the Banner, it's just a piece of cloth that is a beacon to call holy creatures to arms. If it is answered quickly, 2 small holy creatures will arrive; and the longer it goes unanswered, the more likely 2 larger holy creatures might arrive. A Dark mage's minions REALLY don't want to see large holy reinforcements show up, because the demons certainly won't have advantages vs them (likely quite the contrary); but the banner is just cloth, even if it symbolizes something more tangible, so the demons should do everything possible to destroy it - so more like they're highly motivated (by fear) more so than having inherent abilities vs holy conjurations. That's why I could see just Flame +2. But they only chose to have the flame bonus (or lack of disadvantage) for ranged attacks - which is fine too.
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Borg

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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #282 on: July 07, 2016, 05:38:33 am »
Today is A Call to Arms! Check it out.

A Paladin opening which may soon become very common,

R1 - 19
Double move to NC
Final QC Crusade Banner in FC

R2 - 21+2
If you keep 2 mana for a FD enchantment here or a novice armor and go on Guard in FC,
you have 21 mana to spend on 2 Holy creatures, that should open up quite a few possibilities to make an early rush.

You could potentially even summon up to 3 creatures on R2.
That will give a few mages a scare :)

As a side thought :
If you go second on R1 and bring out the Banner as the final QC of R1, it's impossible for your opponent to damage/destroy the banner before you can use it during the R2 deployment phase.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 05:56:43 am by Borg »
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #283 on: July 07, 2016, 08:12:07 am »
Current, I can't see many war creatures the paladin would cast.
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Re: Paladin vs Siren Spoilers
« Reply #284 on: July 07, 2016, 08:20:57 am »
Current, I can't see many war creatures the paladin would cast.

[mwcard=MWBG1C01]Guard Dog[/mwcard] might actually see some play in Crusade Banner books.  You could also give him Badger Frenzy or imagine this guy with the Melee +1, Piercing +2 aura?

I could also imagine a paladin sacrificing the banner early and running [mwcard=DNJ03]Etherian Lifetree[/mwcard] and a bunch of Temple Sentries or Knights of the Red Helm.

So excited about the possibilities!
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