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Author Topic: Differences Academy vs Arena  (Read 6738 times)

Donovan

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Differences Academy vs Arena
« on: August 17, 2016, 03:58:27 PM »
I noticed the following differences. Perhaps somebody spots one I forgot or perhaps I made a mistake?

RED means, I'm not entirely sure.

  • Spellbooks in Academy have fewer pages than the ones in Arena.
  • The mages are lvl 4 instead of 6 in Arena.
  • Academy does not count Life with a counter like Arena does - only damage. Despite that, Life can be increased. You just have to do the math in your head.
  • There are no action markers in Academy. Instead of those, you turn the cards horizontally to indicate they are active or have been active already. The black quick cast marker has been replaced with a marker.
  • In the first 2 rounds in Academy you are not allowed to attack your opponent or play spells on his objects, whereas in Arena you can attack right from round one. Having said that, in Arena you need time to get to your opponent.
  • Academy plays in an arena with only 1 zone. Therefore, you cannot move in Academy like you can in Arena.
  • In Academy the upkeep phase is not followed by a planning and deployment phase like in Arena. In the action phase, a mage can choose from any spell in his spellbook - in Arena you can only use the cards you prepared.
  • In Academy there is no first and final quick cast phase. However, the mage does have an extra quick cast action, which he can use before or after the action of a friendly creature.
  • In Academy the rules do not state clearly when you have to pay for an attack (for example when you have a curse on you that makes you pay mana when attacking). I assume this happens like in Arena directly after the step "Declare Attack".
  • The step "Roll to miss" (for example when dazed) is not there in Academy (dazed isn't there as well btw).
  • From a discussion in the German form it became clear: In Academy the attacked creature cannot decide if he uses his defense or not - like you can do in Arena. If the defense is allowed, it HAS TO be used.
    A single defense HAS TO be used for the first strike of the first attack (no matter if direct attack or counterstrike). After that the defense cannot be used anymore in the current round. The remaining strikes of a multiple strike will not be influenced by the success of a single defense - they happen normally.
    An infinite defense HAS TO be applied for every attack/strike - it is not optional like in Arena.
  • Double and Tripple strike is not mentioned in the rules. The cards mention that the attacks follow each other directly - before a counter strike. This is also what the definition of Doublestrike mentions in the codex.
  • Damage barriers do not exist in Academy.
  • Academy has the condition STAGGER. Stagger is a condition that disorients or knocks a creature off balance. Minor creatures cannot attack or guard while staggered. If they have a guard marker they lose it, and they cannot choose the guard action. Staggers stays until the end of creatures NEXT activation.
  • In Academy guards can ignore pests if they like to. The pest can attack, but there will be no counter strike and the status guard remains. Attackers can ignore pests that guard like in Arena.
  • In Academy it is not 100% clear that attack spells are both spells and attacks. But it is like in Arena: First follow the spell rules and then the attack rules.
  • Spellbooks can only have 40 points in Academy instead of 120 in Arena.
  • In Academy you can only have 3 copies of a level 1 spell instead of 6 in Arena.
  • In Academy you can only have 2 copies of a level 2 and higher spell instead of 4 in Arena.
  • Academy sometimes makes differences between effects on major or minor creatures. Stagger for example works differently for minor creatures compared to major creatures. Sometimes also reveal cost are different. Minor means level 1&2 - major is level 3 and up.
  • From a discussion in the German form it became clear: In Academy melee +X only influences the first strike of the first attack where this bones can be applied - so only once every round. A counterstrike is an attack as well. Therefore it is possible that a creature has to use melee +X during a counterstrike and cannot use melee +X during its own action. Melee +X is not optional - you HAVE TO use it if it applies. For multiple strikes, only the first strike can profit from the bonus.
  • As already said: Pests cannot attack guards in Academy and be 100% sure the guard status goes away. In Arena guard always goes away when a pest attacks.
  • Academy heavily uses Dissipate. Far more often than Arena, although Arena has at least one card too: Rolling Fog. When a spell is played, it gets X Dissipate markers. Every round 1 marker is removed. When all markers are gone, the object is destroyed. So these are minor spells that fade over time.
  • There are no walls in Academy, because there is only 1 zone and no movement.
  • There are no conjurations in Academy.
  • Academy just knows 1 mode, Arena contains two modes: Apprentice (to learn the game) and Advanced (normal game mode).
  • The Codex of Academy and the Codex of Arena should not be used for the other game. As this list shows, there are some substantial differences. If you use the Academy cards in Arena (allowed) then the Arena rules apply first. If there is no rule (Staggering for example), the Academy rules should be followed.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 07:41:51 AM by Donovan »
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 04:48:26 AM »
Very nice write up. I am looking forward for reaction for more Rule wise members of this forum. Right now, i would like to point out, that point 23) About dissipate tokens sounds like Dissipate was introduced in Academy. Which is little bit misleading, because Dissipate was first spotted on card [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ06]Rolling Fog[/mwcard].

For Point 14) I would liek to mentiond that Staggers stays until the end of creatures NEXT activation :)
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2016, 05:37:38 AM »
Nice summary!

Some other differences-

Arena contains two rule sets - Apprentice and Advanced rules. Academy has just one rule set.

Each game has a separate codex for their rules.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2016, 07:02:53 AM »
I noticed the following differences. Perhaps somebody spots one I forgot or perhaps I made a mistake?

RED means, I'm not entirely sure.

  • Spellbooks in Academy have fewer pages than the ones in Arena.
  • The mages are lvl 4 instead of 6 in Arena.
  • Academy does not count Life with a counter like Arena does - only damage. Despite that, Life can be increased. You just have to do the math in your head.
  • There are no action markers in Academy. Instead of those, you turn the cards horizontally to indicate they are active or have been active already. The black quick cast marker has been replaced with a marker.
  • In Academy you are not allowed to attack your opponent or play spells on his objects, whereas in Arena you can attack right from turn one. Having said that, in Arena you need time to get to your opponent.

I think you mean "in Academy you are not allowed to attack in the *first two rounds*." Attacking DOES in fact exist in Academy.

Quote
  • Academy plays in an arena with only 1 zone. Therefore, you cannot move in Academy like you can in Arena.
  • In Academy the upkeep phase is not followed by a planning and deployment phase like in Arena. In the action phase, a mage can choose from any spell in his spellbook - in Arena you can only use the cards you prepared.
  • In Academy there is no first and final quick cast phase. However, the mage does have an extra quick cast action, which he can use before or after the action of a friendly creature.
  • In Academy the rules do not state clearly when you have to pay for an attack (for example when you have a curse on you that makes you pay mana when attacking). I assume this happens like in Arena directly after the step "Declare Attack".
  • The step "Roll to miss" (for example when dazed) is not there in Academy (dazed isn't there as well btw).

No roll to miss step? Whoops in that case there's no slam either. I wrote my unofficial
Mage Wars Academy theme song wrong then. I should have realized, a combination of stagger conditions and cards that restrain enemy creatures (like a weaker force hold) would work better for future academy forcemaster than slam. Slam would be too powerful, since it can both incapacitate a creature disabling its defenses, and remove its guard marker. On the other hand restrained merely gives pest trait and lowers defense rolls by 2 and stagger would remove guard markers from minor creatures and prevent them from attacking.

Then again I doubt restrained will be a thing in academy if tangleroot is any indication, too much room for abuse by other mages. Hmm. Maybe a weaker version of cripple that isn't poison and which goes away at start of creature's next activation or something.

Quote
  • It is not clear if in Academy the attacked creature can decide if he uses his defense or not - like he can in Arena. The Codex says that a single defense can only be used for the first attack. That sounds as if you have to use it for the first attack. But perhaps that is wrong and is it like Arena where the creature can choose to use it or save it for the next attack. On the other side, there is no READY marker. So perhaps really 1 mandatory use? Unclear.
  • Double and Tripple strike is not mentioned in the rules. The cards mention that the attacks follow each other directly - before a counter strike. This is also what the definition of Doublestrike mentions in the codex.
  • Damage barriers do not exist in Academy.
  • Academy has the condition STAGGER. Stagger is a condition that disorients or knocks a creature off balance. Minor creatures cannot attack or guard while staggered. If they have a guard marker they lose it, and they cannot choose the guard action.
  • In Academy guards can ignore pests if they like to. The pest can attack, but there will be no counter strike and the status guard remains. Attackers can ignore pests that guard like in Arena.
  • In Academy it is not 100% clear that attack spells are both spells and attacks. I assume it is like Arena: First follow the spell rules and then the attack rules.
  • Spellbooks can only have 40 points in Academy instead of 120 in Arena.
  • In Academy you can only have 3 copies of a level 1 spell instead of 6 in Arena.
  • In Academy you can only have 2 copies of a level 2 and higher spell instead of 4 in Arena.
  • Academy sometimes makes differences between effects on major or minor creatures. Stagger for example works differently for minor creatures compared to major creatures. Sometimes also reveal cost are different. Minor means level 1&2 - major is level 3 and up.
  • Melee +X works differently in Academy. It looks like Melee +x can only be used once per round and *has* to be used whenever a melee attack takes place (counter strike included)
  • As already said: Pests cannot attack guards in Academy and be 100% sure the guard status goes away. In Arena guard always goes away when a pest attacks.
  • Academy uses Dissipate. When a spell is played, it gets X Dissipate markers. Every round 1 marker is removed. When all markers are gone, the object is destroyed. So these are minor spells that fade over time.
  • There are no walls in Academy, because there is only 1 zone and no movement.
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Donovan

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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 08:27:14 AM »
Very nice write up. I am looking forward for reaction for more Rule wise members of this forum. Right now, i would like to point out, that point 23) About dissipate tokens sounds like Dissipate was introduced in Academy. Which is little bit misleading, because Dissipate was first spotted on card [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ06]Rolling Fog[/mwcard].

For Point 14) I would liek to mentiond that Staggers stays until the end of creatures NEXT activation :)

Nice remarks! Updated the text.
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Donovan

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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 08:30:38 AM »
Nice summary!

Some other differences-

Arena contains two rule sets - Apprentice and Advanced rules. Academy has just one rule set.

Each game has a separate codex for their rules.

Thanks! Modified the text accordingly.
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Donovan

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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 08:33:18 AM »
I think you mean "in Academy you are not allowed to attack in the *first two rounds*." Attacking DOES in fact exist in Academy.

No roll to miss step? Whoops in that case there's no slam either. I wrote my unofficial
Mage Wars Academy theme song wrong then. I should have realized, a combination of stagger conditions and cards that restrain enemy creatures (like a weaker force hold) would work better for future academy forcemaster than slam. Slam would be too powerful, since it can both incapacitate a creature disabling its defenses, and remove its guard marker. On the other hand restrained merely gives pest trait and lowers defense rolls by 2 and stagger would remove guard markers from minor creatures and prevent them from attacking.

Then again I doubt restrained will be a thing in academy if tangleroot is any indication, too much room for abuse by other mages. Hmm. Maybe a weaker version of cripple that isn't poison and which goes away at start of creature's next activation or something.


Thanks for your remarks! Text changed.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 08:39:09 AM »
11. If you don't have an infinite defense, then your defense only works on the first attack against you each round. So far all of the academy creatures with defenses have infinite ones.

16. Yes, they are ATTACKS and SPELLS.

21. The only difference between Academy and Arena on Melee +X is that it only works on the first attack. You can't choose to hold it for a later attack in either game.

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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 02:39:49 PM »
Cleared the last uncertainties.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 04:21:20 PM »
21. The only difference between Academy and Arena on Melee +X is that it only works on the first attack. You can't choose to hold it for a later attack in either game.
In Arena Melee +X works for first possible attack in attack action. I can reveal Bear Strength after first strike of sweeping attack and benefit from it. Revealing Wolf's Fury in similar manner won't let me benefit from its Melee+1 because it works only for first attack in round in Academy.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 04:47:42 PM »
11. If you don't have an infinite defense, then your defense only works on the first attack against you each round. So far all of the academy creatures with defenses have infinite ones.

16. Yes, they are ATTACKS and SPELLS.

21. The only difference between Academy and Arena on Melee +X is that it only works on the first attack. You can't choose to hold it for a later attack in either game.

Attack has 2 different meanings in Mage Wars: Attack as the action causing 1 or more Strikes and Attack as a single Strike within an Attack.

So to be precise (using "Attack containing Strikes" terminology), I believe the following is correct:

In Arena Melee +X works for every first strike of every attack the creature makes.
In Academy Melee +X only works for the first strike of the very first attack of a creature each round.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 05:45:22 PM »
In Arena Melee +X works for every first strike of every attack the creature makes.
To be precise You gain bonus for first applicable strike. [mwcard=MW1C17]Goran, Werewolf Pet[/mwcard] using doublestrike on undamaged creature will get Melee bonus from Bloodthirsty on his second strike if he damages creature with first strike. (Bloodthirsty doesn't grant melee+X, but additional dice) Same applies to enchantments revealed between strikes. You can make a sweeping attack and after hitting guard with first strike You can reveal enchantments to get bonuses against enemy mage.

Quote from: Rules supplement
Increasing the Attack Dice DURING an Attack Action
Some traits (such as Melee +X) state that “if the attack makes multiple attacks against the same or different
creature, it gains the bonus only for the first attack it makes.” This wording is clarified to say; “if the creature
makes multiple attacks during the same attack action, it gains this bonus only for the first attack it can make
with this bonus.”
If a creature gains a bonus on one attack but then the bonus increases for a subsequent attack, on the next attack
he may receive the additional bonus gained.
Example: A creature has a Sweeping attack and Rage +3, and has 2 Rage tokens on him, so he gains Melee +2.
On his first attack, he gets +2 attack dice. If the target Counterstrikes and damages the attacker, the attacker will
get another Rage token, so he will now be at Melee +3. On the second attack, the creature will get +1 attack die.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 07:36:35 PM »
Another difference is that in academy additional strikes of an attack are made by the attack, not directly by the original source of the attack. At least that's the way I remember it worded in the academy rule book.


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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2016, 04:38:14 AM »
In Arena Melee +X works for every first strike of every attack the creature makes.
To be precise You gain bonus for first applicable strike. [mwcard=MW1C17]Goran, Werewolf Pet[/mwcard] using doublestrike on undamaged creature will get Melee bonus from Bloodthirsty on his second strike if he damages creature with first strike. (Bloodthirsty doesn't grant melee+X, but additional dice) Same applies to enchantments revealed between strikes. You can make a sweeping attack and after hitting guard with first strike You can reveal enchantments to get bonuses against enemy mage.

Quote from: Rules supplement
Increasing the Attack Dice DURING an Attack Action
Some traits (such as Melee +X) state that “if the attack makes multiple attacks against the same or different
creature, it gains the bonus only for the first attack it makes.” This wording is clarified to say; “if the creature
makes multiple attacks during the same attack action, it gains this bonus only for the first attack it can make
with this bonus.”
If a creature gains a bonus on one attack but then the bonus increases for a subsequent attack, on the next attack
he may receive the additional bonus gained.
Example: A creature has a Sweeping attack and Rage +3, and has 2 Rage tokens on him, so he gains Melee +2.
On his first attack, he gets +2 attack dice. If the target Counterstrikes and damages the attacker, the attacker will
get another Rage token, so he will now be at Melee +3. On the second attack, the creature will get +1 attack die.

Thx for pointing that out.
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Re: Differences Academy vs Arena
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2016, 05:16:25 AM »
Another difference is that in academy additional strikes of an attack are made by the attack, not directly by the original source of the attack. At least that's the way I remember it worded in the academy rule book.

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Not entirely. Academy says:

Quote
Doublestrike
This attack may make a second attack against the same target. The additional attack occurs before the Counterstrike Step of the attack.

So the attacker stays the same. There is just no explicit "additional strikes" step like in Arena. But the cards say that the additional "attacks" (strikes) must happen before the counterstrike step. So no change to Arena there.

For me that is just adding to the confusion caused by using "attack" as a synonym for 2 different concepts.

Mage Wars uses:

When somebody attacks during his action:
- Attack action (Arena): "All of these Steps are part of one attack action. A creature may use one attack action to make multiple attacks"
- Attack (Arena & Academy): "If a creature is the defender of a melee attack, and it has a quick action melee attack with the Counterstrike trait, it may use that attack against the attacker during the Counterstrike Step of the attack."

A strike within the attack/attack action:
- Attack (Arena & Academy): "Some creatures have a Defense attribute, which represents an ability to avoid an attack."
- Strike (Arena / carefully replaced by Attack in Academy): "Once the first strike is finished, you get to make these additional strikes."

So everywhere you read "Attack", you have to decode from the context: Is the whole thing meant (all strikes) or is a single strike meant?

This could have been avoided by consequently using the "an attack can contain strikes" terminology.

But instead this continues in Academy by saying Double strike executes a second attack after the first attack and still call the entire thing an attack as well "it may use that attack against the attacker during the Counterstrike Step of the attack". Obviously this does not make things clearer for defenses for example where "attacks" are avoided.

This could have been so easy if the rules had stuck to "Attack" containing "Strikes" terminology. Then you could have said: "All strikes of an attack are executed one after another" and "Defenses can only prevent the first strike of the first attack".

But I guess it is too late now. Too many cards out there.
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