September 30, 2022, 08:55:55 PM

Author Topic: Does a Tsunami attack walls that it passes through as it moves from zone to zone  (Read 18848 times)

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Tsunami works using the standard rules, because it was felt that would make it easier to implement. Also, it would allow you to potentially push your own creatures out of the way of further waves. I could ramble a whole bunch on this, as I'm wont to do, but I'll spare everyone.

Biblofilter

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
I am guessing the pushed creature would get attacked again if it was pushed into an empty zone as the Tsunami attacks the current direction in the next zone?.?.?  Devastatingly awesome and scary if it does!!!

Yes, a creature can potentially be attacked multiple times by Tsunami. At most, this could hit the same creature 4 times plus end with a bash attack against the Arena walls.

Note, that you get to choose the direction of the Tsunami but NOT the direction of the Push. Pushes are always directly away from the source of the push (in this case probably the Mage) unless otherwise stated. This can make lining up such devastating Tsunami's tricky to do, and really the only way to do the 4 attacks + bash that I previously mentioned is if your Mage was in the starting zone that you targeted, so you'd take some damage as well.

Im still a bit confused.

Imagine an arena with A,B,C rows and 1,2,3,4 lines.

We start in A1 and at some part in the game we move to B1, planning to cast a Tsunami at the whole C row.

So we cast a Tsunami in C1 (standing in B1) Tsunami moving from C1 to C2, C3 and then C4.

The Push in C1 have to be into the arena wall away from our mage in zone B1.

But what about the pushes in zone C2? (and C3/C4)
Do you have a choice as there are 2 options away from your mage in B1 or are all the Pushes going in the same direction as the one in C1?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Töten". "Alles Töten".
Best strat advice ever

Mystery

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1856
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Biblo is right i think

A1 A2 A3 A4
B1 B2 B3 B4
C1 C2 C3 C4


Caster in B1 (source)
If you cast from B1 to C1 you have to push to the wall
in C2 you can choose either wall or C3
In C3 wall/C4
C4 wall

If you cast the tsunami in C1 and move to B1
In C1 down(wall)
in B1 free choice (if you push yourself new case)
A1 wall (upper)

If you cast in B1 free choice, moving to right (B-line) (not pushing yourself) always push to right
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 09:55:34 AM by Mystery »

Donovan

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
We have not seen pushes over these distances I guess.

Diagonal pushes is clear: you have a choice according to the push rules.

But pushing 2 zones to the right and 1 down, one could argue that this *has to be* a push to the right, as mathematically you would not end up on a zone crossing like with diagonal pushes.

I'm drawing a line from the center of the zone where the Mage is (push source) through the center of the zone where the push takes place.

According to my knowledge LoS works this way as well.

So in the scenario where you cast Tsunami 1 zone down and let it travel to the right, I would argue the first push goes 1 zone down, the push in the next zone where Tsunami travels goes diagonally (hence choose) and the subsequent pushes in susequent zones go all to the right?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid

Biblofilter

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Just another thought if "the source" moves (get pushed along with the Tsunami) then the push is calculated from where "the source" actually is and not from the original position?

That would mean Push in any direction, even the opposite direction of the Tsunami wave.

It might give some "interesting" possibilities with Divine Intervention for example.

  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Töten". "Alles Töten".
Best strat advice ever

Mystery

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1856
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
We just started those discussions in our playtester skype group.

For diagonal pushes and these things I'd personally now simply go by the rules, there is just an away in direction so on C3 and C4 are like C2 in the example without any distinction which is further. This is also easier, as otherwise with walls you might get some troubles. But maybe Laddinfance and Bryan hopefully will provide an answer.

Other points I rose was also the moving (Devine intervention and self push if also targeted by Tsunami), walls, LOS, Mage death before Tsunami has reached the last zone...

Currently I would answer the new position if you are moved for whatever reason (as the new attack has a new source in respect to push).

Kelanen

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1187
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
I'll add another vote that pushes not in the direction of Tsunami are counter-intuitive, and it would have been simpler to do that.

It will work any way, but just needs lots of FAQ, particularly on 3/4 range diagonals.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
I am a little late to the party today, as I spent it visiting family, but there are a lot of questions that seem to have been brought up about this spell which I'd like to chime in on. I do want to preface this with the disclaimer that despite my reputation I am not an Arcane Wonders employee and I may be wrong on some of these points. Still, here is my 2 cents:

Which direction do objects get pushed in?

Quote from: Codex definition of Push
Unless the effect says otherwise, the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push. If there is a choice of direction (such as pushing a creature diagonally opposite, or if the source of the Push is in the same zone as the target), the source of the Push chooses the direction.

The source of the push is the caster, since the default source of all attack spells is the caster. If we're targeting the same zone as the caster, then the caster gets to choose what direction everything gets pushed in, and may choose different directions for different objects. If the target zone is orthogonal to the caster, then all pushes must continue along that orthogonal path away from the caster. If the target zone is diagonal to the caster, then the caster will have two choices of which direction they may push objects, and may choose differently for different objects.

The new and confusing thing with Tsunami is the ability to push objects that are three or four zones away, such as a Mage in B1 pushing objects in C3. This is neither truly diagonal nor orthogonal, but rather at an angle in between. The rules don't go over this possibility in any detail, and the final ruling may end up contradicting me, but based purely on what's currently in the rulebook, this is how I would handle the situation.

I would do like Donovan suggests. Draw a line from the center of the Mages zone, through the center of the target zone, and then continue that line until you hit another zone. Whatever zone you hit is where you MUST push to. This is what best fits the description of moving them "one zone away in the opposite direction" if you ask me. The only time this method doesn't work is when you're drawing a diagonal line, because then the next zone you encounter is two zones away from the target's zone. But we have very clear guidelines for how to handle that situation already.

Thus, as Donovan stated, when the Mage is standing at B1, targets in C1 will be bashed into the Arena wall; targets in C2 may either be bashed into the arena wall or pushed to C3 at the caster's discretion; targets in C3 will be pushed to C4; and targets in C4 will be bashed into the arena wall.

What happens if the source of the spell is moved?
This question has a few different parts to it. First, Tsunami is not cancelled by its own pushes. Ever. The rules in the Supplement state that Tsunami would be cancelled if the caster got moved BEFORE the Resolve Spell Step of casting the spell (they aren't) or BEFORE the Apply Damage and Effects Step of the attack (they aren't). Now it is true the caster may be pushed before ALL attacks have been resolved, but this will not affect attacks which have not begun yet (see the examples for sweeping in the supplement). Moving the caster by other means, such as Divine Intervention, may end up cancelling Tsunami depending on when the move occurs. If this needs further discussion, let me know.

Next, we need to reiterate that the source of the spell is the caster. Not the zone the caster was in when they cast the spell. The source is the caster. If the caster moves, then the source of the spell/attack/push moves as well and you will start drawing your lines from the new zone that the caster is in.

Do you need Line of Sight?
Pushing does not actually require line of sight. It is certainly possible that the caster of Tsunami may be moved to a zone in which they no longer have line of sight to the target zone that they were in the process of attacking. This will not prevent them from resolving the attacks in that zone in any way shape or form (other than perhaps changing the direction of the Pushes).

However, you do have to have line of sight to a zone in order to target it AND initiating a zone attack always requires you to target the zone you're attacking. You don't have to target the individual objects in that zone, but you do have to target the zone itself. Thus, if line of sight is ever blocked from the caster to a zone that Tsunami wishes to initiate an attack in, the attack will fail and be cancelled. Since the entire zone attack failed to resolve in this situation, I do not believe you'd be allowed to repeat it in another zone even if you somehow have line of sight to that new zone. This could be another area where I am incorrect though.

If the caster dies, does the Tsunami continue?
Quote from: Rules Supplement
If a Mage dies, continue play until the end of that Phase (e.g. the Upkeep Phase, or the current creature's Action Phase.)

The game does not end immediately upon Mage death, so Tsunami will not be stopped by that occurrence. However, regardless of whether the caster is a Mage or otherwise, death of the caster will fall into the realm of the caster moving, which we've already gone over. To reiterate though, this will also not have any affect on a zone attack in progress, but obviously the caster will not have the ability to target additional zones to attack after the current one is finished, so those will fail.

I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:41:50 AM by Zuberi »

Coshade

  • Arcane Duels Host
  • Administrator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1938
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
    • Arcane Duels!
I would like to nominate Zuberi for 5 Banana Stickers for this detailed response.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
I understood that, but I still think it's not intuitive.  :P It's not a game changing thing but something I'll have to keep in mind.

Imo, the push should be in the direction the tsunami moves, even in the first zone the tsunami hits, and walls between borders should be attacked by the wave.

The "general" push-rules are very intuitive for cards like [mwcard=MW1A09]Jet Stream[/mwcard], where the caster of the spell is also the origin of the force vector.

I think Tsunami is the first exception at this regard.

  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Kelanen

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1187
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Thanks for this Ivan - enlightening as always. Actually, going into this detail raises more complications I'd not even thought of...

The new and confusing thing with Tsunami is the ability to push objects that are three or four zones away, such as a Mage in B1 pushing objects in C3. This is neither truly diagonal nor orthogonal, but rather at an angle in between. The rules don't go over this possibility in any detail, and the final ruling may end up contradicting me, but based purely on what's currently in the rulebook, this is how I would handle the situation.

I would do like Donovan suggests. Draw a line from the center of the Mages zone, through the center of the target zone, and then continue that line until you hit another zone. Whatever zone you hit is where you MUST push to. This is what best fits the description of moving them "one zone away in the opposite direction" if you ask me.
That's a reasonable ruling; I would have ruled that where it's not in a straight line you could push to either zone, so a 2,1 or 3,1 diagonal is handled the same way as a 1,1. That said, thinking about it, your way is more consistent with LOS past walls I believe...

Next, we need to reiterate that the source of the spell is the caster. Not the zone the caster was in when they cast the spell. The source is the caster. If the caster moves, then the source of the spell/attack/push moves as well and you will start drawing your lines from the new zone that the caster is in.
...And the source of the Push effect is the caster, not the spell.

These two small but very significant rules that open a whole can of worms... and more than just the push issue which I'd spotted.

Having a Tsunami travel one direction, but resolve pushes perpendicular to it (or even reversed from it in the first zone) is weird and non-intuitive. It's well-supported in rules, but I think this card should be ruled differently.

Do you need Line of Sight?
Pushing does not actually require line of sight. It is certainly possible that the caster of Tsunami may be moved to a zone in which they no longer have line of sight to the target zone that they were in the process of attacking. This will not prevent them from resolving the attacks in that zone in any way shape or form (other than perhaps changing the direction of the Pushes).
Again, Tsunami hitting a zone, but pushing creatures affected before the mage one way, and after the mage another way falls into the 'weird & unintuitive' bucket to me.

However, you do have to have line of sight to a zone in order to target it AND initiating a zone attack always requires you to target the zone you're attacking. You don't have to target the individual objects in that zone, but you do have to target the zone itself. Thus, if line of sight is ever blocked from the caster to a zone that Tsunami wishes to initiate an attack in, the attack will fail and be cancelled. Since the entire zone attack failed to resolve in this situation, I do not believe you'd be allowed to repeat it in another zone even if you somehow have line of sight to that new zone. This could be another area where I am incorrect though.

So... The following situation; where the caster is in A2, and the Tsunami first targets A2 travelling 'eastwards' along row 2, and an LOS-blocking wall exists between B1 and B2:

A1 B1 C1 D1
A2 B2 C2 D2
A3 B3 C3 D3

Scenario 1: the Tsunami can throw the caster out of the Tsunami to A3, and other creatures forward to B2. Then the Tsunami attempts to push everything remaining forward into C2, then attacks C2, and pushes things into D2, before finally attacking D2, and then probably throwing things into the Arena wall. This is all how one would expect things to work.

Scenario 2: the Tsunami instead throw the caster out of the Tsunami to A1, and other creatures forward to B2. Then the Tsunami pushes those remaining forward into C2, but then suddenly stops, and doesn't Zone Attack on C2, because the caster has no LOS to it, even though the Tsunami source point does.

I get the rules implication why, but throw this in my 'weird & unintuitive' bucket also.

If the caster dies, does the Tsunami continue?
Quote from: Rules Supplement
If a Mage dies, continue play until the end of that Phase (e.g. the Upkeep Phase, or the current creature's Action Phase.)
The game does not end immediately upon Mage death, so Tsunami will not be stopped by that occurrence. However, regardless of whether the caster is a Mage or otherwise, death of the caster will fall into the realm of the caster moving, which we've already gone over. To reiterate though, this will also not have any affect on a zone attack in progress, but obviously the caster will not have the ability to target additional zones to attack after the current one is finished, so those will fail.

So even in the simple Scenario 1 above, the caster death in one zone, means that you finish attacks in that zone, but don't continue onto any other zones in the row. Again, consistent and clear from a rules point of view, but not at all intuitive - another example into that bucket...

----------------------------------------------------

Now, consider an alternative: If you errata Tsunami something to the effect of "Tsunami is the source of these attacks"  (possibly needs "attacks and pushes?)then all of these oddities go away, and having cast the Tsunami, it goes off and does it's thing until it's natural conclusion, and acts in the way that players would expect (and for that matter that physics would imply).

What's the downside? The only change that you might get from this that I can think of would be to things like Reverse Attack and Redirect, but Tsunami being Unavoidable means they didn't have an interaction here anyway. Is there something that this breaks that I've not thought of?

I really think that Tsunami should receive errata to say that Tsunami is the source of all effects.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:55:57 AM by Kelanen »

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Quote from: Kelanen
Now, consider an alternative: If you errata Tsunami something to the effect of "Tsunami is the source of these attacks"  (possibly needs "attacks and pushes?)then all of these oddities go away, and having cast the Tsunami, it goes off and does it's thing until it's natural conclusion, and acts in the way that players would expect (and for that matter that physics would imply).

What's the downside? The only change that you might get from this that I can think of would be to things like Reverse Attack and Redirect, but Tsunami being Unavoidable means they didn't have an interaction here anyway. Is there something that this breaks that I've not thought of?

That's an interesting proposition, but I believe it would cause more problems than it would solve. It is certainly possible to make Tsunami the source of the attack. We already have situations like that with cards like [mwcard=MW1I11]Explode[/mwcard]. However, Attack spells and Incantations are somewhat intangible. They never create objects on the board and thus take up no space on the board. So with a spell like Tsunami, where exactly would we be saying the source is at? Can't push from nowhere.

I'm not sure exactly how you might overcome this with proper wording, but the only solution I can think of working with your suggestion is that the source somehow ends up being the zone currently being attacked, i.e. coming from the attack itself. If that is the case, then in every zone hit you would get to choose where each object gets pushed because they're in the same zone as the source of the push. This neither solves people's concerns about the push effects nor about walls.

Kelanen

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1187
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
However, Attack spells and Incantations are somewhat intangible. They never create objects on the board and thus take up no space on the board.

They never 'are' an object on the board, but they certainly create objects on the board - Ignite? Animate Dead? Resurrection? Any Attack spell that causes a condition...

I would have thought that you could have worded it okay with something like "The initial target of Tsunami is considered the source of all further damage and effects of this spell", but if that's too ephemeral, then you have; "Put a Tsunami token in the first zone targeted, that token is considered the source of all damage and effects from Tsunami" ?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 11:33:57 AM by Kelanen »

Donovan

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
I think there are 2 possibilities:

a) We use the existing rules and make Tsunami work like those
b) We want Tsunami to do what you would expect from a real Tsunami

In Mage Wars, b) is equally important to a) I would say.

As Zuberi summarized you can already use a).

As Kelanen summarized, you could make b) work as well. It only needs 1 additional sentence on the card:

"After its initial zone attack, Tsunami becomes the source of subsequent zone attacks."

Note that this will mean, that any wall Tsunami will cross will stop it from moving further, because there would be no LoS from Tsunamis current zone to its next zone.

Although I was heavily in favor of making Tsunami work more real, I'm now more and more for variant a).

Because:

- It uses existing rules.
- You can easily almost make it work like a real Tsunami would, by cleverly casting and pushing.
- It gives you more strategic possibilities to use the spell, like making sure it does not stop at a wall that blocks LoS.
- It doesn't create other problems with spells that address the "caster of the spell".

Having a Tsunami travel one direction, but resolve pushes perpendicular to it (or even reversed from it in the first zone) is weird and non-intuitive. It's well-supported in rules, but I think this card should be ruled differently.

It is only weird if you consider the Tsunami to be the source of subsequent zone attacks.

It would not be weird if you would describe the card:

"When Tsunami is cast, the mage chooses a direction. After Tsunami is done attacking the zone it was cast to, the mage may cast Tsunami again to the next zone at no additional mana cost, following the chosen direction while ignoring the spell distance. Tsunami stops repeating when it reaches an Arena wall. When a situation arises that would not allow the mage to re-cast Tsunami - for example when he has no longer LoS to the zone where the next attack would need to take place - the Tsunami attack stops repeating as well."
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Quote from: Kelanen
"The initial target of Tsunami is considered the source of all further damage and effects of this spell"

Something like that could work. I'm not sure if it would be as clear to everyone as it is in your head though. Often times things that we think are super straightforward turn out to be a lot more confusing and complicated than we at first give them credit for. Such as saying a spell uses the standard rules that everyone has been playing by for years, just as an example. But it is a very valid suggestion and I like your creativity. Something else to consider when describing the effect you want, is that space on a card is at a premium. I'm not certain how much this played into Tsunami's design, and I think it could perhaps fit another short sentence on it, but you can only fit so much on a tiny piece of cardboard and that does always need to be considered.

I think you've given good feedback though, even if I'm not convinced that such a change is necessary. You've expressed how you'd like it to work and given what may be a feasible solution. Will just have to wait and see if Arcane Wonders decides to make such a change.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:33:14 AM by Zuberi »