September 30, 2022, 07:57:33 PM

Author Topic: Does a Tsunami attack walls that it passes through as it moves from zone to zone  (Read 18845 times)

Kelanen

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- It gives you more strategic possibilities to use the spell, like making sure it does not stop at a wall that blocks LoS.
It could easily be worded around this. lots of effects (pushes, and teleports, etc) don't need LOS, and at most it needs a "this subsequent attack doesn't need LOS from the previous zone" in the text.

It would not be weird if you would describe the card:

"When Tsunami is cast, the mage chooses a direction. After Tsunami is done attacking the zone it was cast to, the mage may cast Tsunami again to the next zone at no additional mana cost, following the chosen direction while ignoring the spell distance. Tsunami stops repeating when it reaches an Arena wall. When a situation arises that would not allow the mage to re-cast Tsunami - for example when he has no longer LoS to the zone where the next attack would need to take place - the Tsunami attack stops repeating as well."
Honestly that sounds nothing like a Tsunami to me. Call it a linear maelstrom, or chain explosion, or something, but it's not a Tsunami...

Quote from: Kelanen
"The initial target of Tsunami is considered the source of all further damage and effects of this spell"
Something like that could work. I'm not sure if it would be as clear to everyone as it is in your head though. Often times things that we think are super straightforward turn out to be a lot more confusing and complicated than we at first give them credit for.
Agreed - it was a genuine open question asking why that approach couldn't work, and whether it broke something else in turn. It's always easy enough to point out the flaws in someone else's idea/wording and I do it all the time, it may be that fresh eyes find something equally problematic with mine - I can't currently see a downside (other than it's errata on a card that's already gone to print).

Such as saying a spell uses the standard rules that everyone has been playing by for years, just as an example.
Agreed. Whilst it is true that it's using the standard rules we've always used, it's also using then in a combination that gives results that few would naturally grok at first pass.

Something else to consider when describing the effect you want, is that space on a card is at a premium. I'm not certain how much this played into Tsunami's design, and I think it could perhaps fit another short sentence on it, but you can only fit so much on a tiny piece of cardboard and that does always need to be considered.
Actually, I had originally written a short para on that, and deleted it as off topic. To be honest, given that the card is printed, the full text is likely to only exist in the rules supplement, not on the card, so that's less of an issue. That said, I'm sure you could word this such that it would fit on the card, and if push comes to shove, I'd rather have a reduced font to accommodate (already done on a lot of cards).

You've expressed how you'd like it to work and given what may be a feasible solution. Will just have to wait and see if Arcane Wonders decides to make such a change.
Honestly, I doubt they will. Although they often tinker with adding a subtype, they very rarely issue big errata like this - it's essentially happened once in 2013 at the game's start, and just recently with Wizard/Tower (which should have happened a couple of years earlier).

I'd like to see this work differently, because how it actually works is a mess and unintuitive. AW has only applied non-subtype errata for power level, not just because something could have been designed better. The card won't be broken as printed, and not unplayable either, so it doesn't have a power level problem.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:10:14 PM by Kelanen »

Kaarin

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Can someone post whole text of Tsunami?
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Kelanen

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Can someone post whole text of Tsunami?

Tsunami - Attack (Hydro)
Cost: 14  Full Action  Range: 0-1  Target: Zone  Water L3
Ranged Hydro Zone Attack: 3D, 5+ Push, Extinguish, Unavoidable
When Tsunami is cast, choose a direction. After the Attack resolves, repeat the attack one zone farther away in the chosen direction. This continues until there are no farther zones. Flying creatures are immune to Tsunami.

4:30  http://www.dicetower.com/game/202760/mage-wars-arena-paladin-vs-siren-expansion-set

Donovan

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I know what you feel. I felt the same way when I saw the Arcane Duals game.  ;D It would have been such a strong and visual finisher.

But would you let the Tsunami stop if it hits a wall that blocks LoS?
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Kelanen

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But would you let the Tsunami stop if it hits a wall that blocks LoS?

Personally, no, but I could live with it either way...

Donovan

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And would you attack walls only once?

Or twice for every zone it is attached to?

And when would they be attacked? Only if they have not been attacked by Tsunami already?

And although you'd want a more realistic Tsunami, Tsunamis would not be weakened by a Wall of Steel?  8)
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Kelanen

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And would you attack walls only once?

Or twice for every zone it is attached to?

And when would they be attacked? Only if they have not been attacked by Tsunami already?

These are all the same question. A Zone Attack never attacks walls on it's border so there is no possibility of it attacking them twice or as part of the Zone attack unless you put text on it to make this more screwy than normal.

Attacking a wall as it passes from zone to zone would be the logical point, but I'd be fine if walls are skipped as now.

And although you'd want a more realistic Tsunami, Tsunamis would not be weakened by a Wall of Steel?  8)

I'm actually not really about realism, just intuitive behaviour. Most wall behaviour is unintuitive anyway because  you are modelling anything from a wall of steel to a coral reef, and many points in between. That stats and traits for those walls are not remotely realistic either (don't get me started on how a Wall of Steel should be immune to lightning, not more affected!).

I feel this is an ad absurdum argument.

wtcannonjr

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Can someone post whole text of Tsunami?

Tsunami - Attack (Hydro)
Cost: 14  Full Action  Range: 0-1  Target: Zone  Water L3
Ranged Hydro Zone Attack: 3D, 5+ Push, Extinguish, Unavoidable
When Tsunami is cast, choose a direction. After the Attack resolves, repeat the attack one zone farther away in the chosen direction. This continues until there are no farther zones. Flying creatures are immune to Tsunami.

4:30  http://www.dicetower.com/game/202760/mage-wars-arena-paladin-vs-siren-expansion-set
Based on this wording I don't see why we need LOS to enter the discussion once the spell resolves. The effect allows the attack to continue into subsequent zones in the chosen direction without regard to LOS.

As to the simpler wording for an intuitive effect how about "Push effects for Tsunami are resolved using the chosen direction."?
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Zuberi

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Quote from: wtcannonjr
Based on this wording I don't see why we need LOS to enter the discussion once the spell resolves. The effect allows the attack to continue into subsequent zones in the chosen direction without regard to LOS.

It says to repeat the attack one zone farther away. Nothing about ignoring the normal rules or steps of an attack. Making a zone attack requires you to target the zone during the Declare Attack step. Targeting the zone requires line of sight. Thus, if you don't have line of sight, the attack will fail and be cancelled during the Declare Attack Step.

Donovan

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I'd say let's use the existing rules and add 3 words: "After the attack resolves, the Mage can repeat the attack 1 zone farther away in the chosen direction."

That would clarify all.

The supplement can deal with pushes over long distances where I would favor the center of casting Zone to center of target zone principle.
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wtcannonjr

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Quote from: wtcannonjr
Based on this wording I don't see why we need LOS to enter the discussion once the spell resolves. The effect allows the attack to continue into subsequent zones in the chosen direction without regard to LOS.

It says to repeat the attack one zone farther away. Nothing about ignoring the normal rules or steps of an attack. Making a zone attack requires you to target the zone during the Declare Attack step. Targeting the zone requires line of sight. Thus, if you don't have line of sight, the attack will fail and be cancelled during the Declare Attack Step.
I am using the general rule that card text overrides RAW. So when I read "...repeat the attack one zone farther away in the chosen direction. ", this replaces the LOS and target rules in a basic Attack action as the zone target is being established by the spell effect without regard to mage or mage location.

That is my rationale. It seems your rationale is adding the spell effect as a further restriction to the LOS and Targeting rules while I am replacing the RAW with the text on the card since the effect provides the result you would get from the targeting step.

So to me it is a question of whether the spell effect is adding a restriction to target selection or replacing the standard rule.
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Kelanen

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I'd say let's use the existing rules and add 3 words: "After the attack resolves, the Mage can repeat the attack 1 zone farther away in the chosen direction."

That would clarify all.

It would clarify it, but a similar amount of errata, you could change and clarify it to a more intuitive effect for the Tsunami.