August 09, 2022, 09:26:47 AM

Author Topic: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan  (Read 3260 times)

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« on: October 23, 2016, 04:03:46 AM »
Can someone explain all the interactions going on here? I don't have the rules about terrain & grapple + flying but I'm interested. Does the Leviathan's effect still work?
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Kaarin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 01:14:47 PM »
IIRC both creatures in grapple lose and cannot gain flying.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
OCTGN: Wstrzasniety (UTC+2)

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 03:45:38 PM »
Part of grappling is that both creatures become restrained. Part of restrained is that you lose and cannot gain flying. So with the kraken, if you enchant it with eagle wings while it's grappling, it will not gain the flying trait until after the grapple ends. If it is enchanted while not grappling, it will lose the flying trait whenever it initiates a grapple until the grapple ends.

With the Leviathan, however, he doesn't grapple nor cause himself to become restrained in any other way. So, if you put eagle wings on him, you just have a flying Leviathan and he still restrains enemy creatures in aquatic terrain.

Biblofilter

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 11:40:02 PM »
Ok i might as well check if my idea would work at all.

Hidden Eagle Wings on Kraken

Quickcast Wall of Thorns

Reveal Eagle Wings

Activate Kraken

If Kraken snatch and grapple a creature on the other side will that creature be snatched through the wall or over it?

What would happen if the wall is solid like Wall of Bones?

After the snatch&grapple both Kraken and the other creature would both loose flying.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Töten". "Alles Töten".
Best strat advice ever

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2016, 12:17:34 AM »
Since it's a ranged attack, and since you cannot gain or lose flying during an attack action, the kraken would remain flying for the duration of the attack. Nothing conveys flying to the prey though, so it will encounter any intervening walls. You do have to snatch before you grapple (otherwise grapple would prevent snatch), and if the snatch fails to move the creature then the grapple also fails, if I remember correctly. So you could snatch through the wall of thorns and then grapple, but I'm pretty sure a passage blocked wall would result in a bash attack and no grapple.

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2016, 01:51:42 AM »
Ok thank you Zuberi. There are some pretty weird interactions going on here. If the kraken would pull someone through a wall it would normally mean that his arm is going through. I expected the creature to fly over the wall when snatched. It would also result in a grapple for passage block walls. I understand now why the kraken cannot have unstoppable with the grapple rules. Maybe "kraken cannot gain flying" would have been easier.  ::)

Isn't there some kind of rule that the terrain effects only work on non-flying creatures? Or maybe on the water terrains itself? Its strange that the leviathan would still be able to use his effect when flying.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Boocheck

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2016, 03:59:40 AM »
Isn't there some kind of rule that the terrain effects only work on non-flying creatures? Or maybe on the water terrains itself? Its strange that the leviathan would still be able to use his effect when flying.

I think that there is no such ruling. Most of the times, specific terrain decide that on its own. Shallow Sea specificaly says that it not affect flyers. There are terrains that affect everything like Consecrated Ground do.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
I am one with the force, the force is with me! (Warlord is still my fav mage ;) )

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 04:26:24 AM »
Alright, so since shallow sea does not affect flyers, a flying leviathan would not have his ability activated?
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Boocheck

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2016, 06:29:18 AM »
Text on card.

Quote
Aquatic creatures in this zone gain Melee +1.

Non-Flying, non-aquatic creatures in this zone are hindered and roll 1 less die when making non-spell attacks.

I am not Zuberi, so take me lightly. Flying Leviathan will probably recieve Melee +1.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
I am one with the force, the force is with me! (Warlord is still my fav mage ;) )

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2016, 07:43:51 AM »
Terrain definitely can affect flyers, and flyers will count as being "in" whatever terrain they share a zone with. So a flying Leviathan in Shallow Sea will get the Melee +1 and will restrain his enemies.

Quote from: PvS Rulebook
When the Kraken succeeds on its effect roll, it must Snatch before it Grapples. If the creature is in another zone, and it is not Snatched and Pushed to the Kraken’s zone, then the Grapple fails.

Since a passage blocked wall would prevent the defender from being Pushed into the Kraken's zone, the Grapple will not occur. The defender will receive a Bash attack and then be free to go. Thematically, the problem with the Kraken reaching through a Wall of Thorns, or other Passage Attack wall, is no different than it was with Thornlasher. Tentacles are just good at navigating such obstacles I guess. Or maybe don't represent significant enough mass for such damage to matter.

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1788
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2016, 07:54:40 AM »
Ok. Understood. Thank you for your explanation Zuberi! It's weird but ok.  :P

The kraken is a slightly weird, but I can ignore it and imagine some explanation.

For the Leviathan, I feel there is a minor rules error with respect to terrain. Especially since this means that all water bonusses work while flying. Like that familiar and all melee fighters.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 07:56:22 AM by Halewijn »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Eagle wings + Kraken&Leviathan
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 08:29:35 AM »
and the 41st banana sticker goes to...