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Author Topic: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament  (Read 152917 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #150 on: January 15, 2017, 10:35:14 PM »
in irl matches like gen con, i do not recall any injunction against something like this. it is a crutch for memory for his own mage, not info on his opponent for example. it does not give him any special insight beyond a reminder text. i can understand your viewpoint however. because, there is no guarantee that his note is just for himself. i could contain insights on his opponent, tendencies etc. however since this is online, such notes could easilly be handwritten next to him and you would not know. not sure how it can be prevented here.

come to think of it, in a irl match, something like that is easier to catch as a judge. perhaps grizzly can chime in as he has been a head judge for several tournaments.

Probably because it's common sense not to do that sort of thing at any high level gaming tournament? It probably didn't occur to anyone that they would need such an injunction.


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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #151 on: January 15, 2017, 10:59:07 PM »
agreed. in my experience at several tournaments irl, i have never noticed any notes during a match. i agree that folks should not have such aids during a match. it should be mano e mano, not mano e mano and his pda full of info.

between matches review some notes for upcoming match sure. not during. and i also agree should not matter online vs irl. just not sure how it can be policed other than integrity and honor system.

DevilsVendetta

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #152 on: January 15, 2017, 11:03:50 PM »
Regarding dice, that's not a common sense approach. It's a potential approach. I've played many different types of games that if you roll the wrong number of dice, you don't just add more dice to make up the difference, you roll the full correct number of dice. And I have no idea how notes about my book give me any advantage. Should we ban people with photographic memories since they have even more of an inherent advantage. Having notes on others books or strategies would be an issue, but not your own.

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #153 on: January 15, 2017, 11:29:08 PM »
Im with puddin and devil. I dont see a  issue with it.
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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2017, 11:38:01 PM »
What a fascinating question posed here. Sure I'll chime in my two cents for what it's worth.

For dice, forgetting to roll the correct amount of dice is common. If they roll too few dice and it's caught fast enough, simply allowing them to roll the extras they left out solves that. If they rolled too many, for example forgot to take Aegis into account I typically have them roll the correct number and cap the damage at whatever the previous roll was. For example if you roll 4 dice and do 4 damage to me, rolling 3 dice and getting 6 damage isn't going to happen. Get it right the first time :)

In terms of notes. Zot you're right I've never heard of any official ban on them at high level events. However I can see how an issue could arise fast. I can actually quite easily see someone accusing someone with notes of using them as cheat sheets. It'd be simple enough for the judges to just read the notes ahead of time but there's a precedent here that I think holds. Any supplemental items you bring with you to a high end event MUST be approved by both players. This was the ruling in 2015 with those Status Board tablet things.  Even a magnet board could in theory been seen as a way to cheat and requires approval from your opponent.

So an official proclamation regarding Gen Con? Ok sure here you go: You may keep a note with you to remind you of your opening so long as your opponent has no issue. The second someone has ANY issue at all though you will be required to put it away or face forfeit of your match. Repeated abuse will result in expulsion from the event.
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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2017, 11:48:10 PM »
Just started watching werekingdom vs Grimmbart. Noticed the sticky note that werekingdom brought with him to the game to remind himself of what his openings were. Is that allowed? It seems like cheating. If someone did that at an official offline tournament they'd be disqualified right? And if it was allowed here I'm sure everyone would be doing it and they're not. Something like that needs to be spelled out BEFORE the tournament starts. Otherwise the players who do bring notes with them into their matches gain an unfair advantage over those who don't. Am I missing something here?

I don't see how it's an unfair advantage.  You've made a plan that you'd like to execute and you're just reminding yourself what you wanted to do.  It's not a printout of the other person's spellbook or extra cards or anything.

Well, because most people don't use sticky notes and are relying on memory and on how well they know their book in order to make the right play. And most people probably didn't realize that they could bring strategy notes into a tournament match. If someone needs notes it's probably because they didn't practice enough or don't know their book well enough to know what they should do in the moment and adapt accordingly to what their opponent is doing. So just to be clear, does this mean it's okay to write notes on the back of my hand to help me in tournament games at gen con? I'm pretty sure if it's not allowed at gen con then it shouldn't be allowed in ADMW especially if the players aren't told about it explicitly ahead of time. This is common sense. The logic doesn't change just because you're playing online instead of at a convention.

I've lost track of the number of times players have tried to cheat by using the online interface as an excuse to ignore common sense and pretend to themselves that they're not cheating. For example when people don't roll enough dice for their attack, and they think that means they can reroll ALL the dice including the ones they've already rolled even without akiro's favor or divine challenge. And no matter how many times I tell people that they can't do that they still keep doing it anyways.


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Lots of things here.

First, you're making a HUGE deal of something that is really not a big deal. If we're at GenCon and you have a hand written battle plan of your first X turns, why would I care? Flexibility wins games, not notes you take about how you would like to your OWN book to play out. Chill out, we're a friendly community here.

Second, in regards to the dice, an example from our local rules (for my personal gaming group) are that if you have to reroll dice or roll the wrong amount, you correct the mistake by rolling the correct amount in it's entirety. It's just easier to keep track of for many reasons irrelevant in this particular thread. While that may not be the case everywhere, it is understandable that someone would think to do so, and most definitely not cheating. It is LITERALLY not changing any of the statistics involved. Flipping a coin a min ago and it landing heads does not make tails suddenly more likely to occur on the next flip. Please stop clogging this thread and instead bring up "cheating" issues offline or elsewhere so that they can be resolved in a manner that doesn't derail the tournament thread.

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Drefan

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #156 on: January 16, 2017, 01:07:52 AM »
I also like to point out that rolling more dice on octagon by mistake is a lot more common than in real life, at least for me. Since Octagon works so well, you can be caught off-guard the few times the wrong amount of dice is there.

I've always played that you re-roll all of your die, since, in theory, it shouldn't change the outcome of the attack and that has been the norm of 99% of my octagon matches. Perhaps also stating what rules are for dice and re-rolls might be needed if people get to heated about this issue.

However, if you manually add more die to roll, the dmg step is not automated so it would be easy to catch someone who is actively trying to "get more good rolls" however, I can not think of one time that has been an issue.

When it comes to notes and online play, I do not know in what capacity you're able to check if someone would be using notes, but I guess that might be an issue if you were only playing one deck for a longer tournament. But that could be fixed by having private matches, with the only the judge being in the lobby beside the players, and everyone agreeing not to say anything about the games they play. So unless its a 1 deck tournament, I see absolutely no problems with notes, and I have no idea as to why anyone would consider it cheating. If you are playing vs someone who relies on following a set script for the first few rounds, I'd say you are playing against someone who is not comfortable playing their deck.

However, we've moved away from 1deck tournaments as of late and I think that's a really good approach to the game, especially since we have a really passionate community that loves to play and watch other play!

« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 01:11:46 AM by Drefan »
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aridigas

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #157 on: January 16, 2017, 03:27:18 AM »
Tomorrow, Jan 17th, 8pm cet aridigas - MrBubu in Group B!
Looking for someone to record/judge

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #158 on: January 16, 2017, 06:27:08 AM »
Just started watching werekingdom vs Grimmbart. Noticed the sticky note that werekingdom brought with him to the game to remind himself of what his openings were. Is that allowed? It seems like cheating. If someone did that at an official offline tournament they'd be disqualified right? And if it was allowed here I'm sure everyone would be doing it and they're not. Something like that needs to be spelled out BEFORE the tournament starts. Otherwise the players who do bring notes with them into their matches gain an unfair advantage over those who don't. Am I missing something here?

I don't see how it's an unfair advantage.  You've made a plan that you'd like to execute and you're just reminding yourself what you wanted to do.  It's not a printout of the other person's spellbook or extra cards or anything.

Well, because most people don't use sticky notes and are relying on memory and on how well they know their book in order to make the right play. And most people probably didn't realize that they could bring strategy notes into a tournament match. If someone needs notes it's probably because they didn't practice enough or don't know their book well enough to know what they should do in the moment and adapt accordingly to what their opponent is doing. So just to be clear, does this mean it's okay to write notes on the back of my hand to help me in tournament games at gen con? I'm pretty sure if it's not allowed at gen con then it shouldn't be allowed in ADMW especially if the players aren't told about it explicitly ahead of time. This is common sense. The logic doesn't change just because you're playing online instead of at a convention.

I've lost track of the number of times players have tried to cheat by using the online interface as an excuse to ignore common sense and pretend to themselves that they're not cheating. For example when people don't roll enough dice for their attack, and they think that means they can reroll ALL the dice including the ones they've already rolled even without akiro's favor or divine challenge. And no matter how many times I tell people that they can't do that they still keep doing it anyways.


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Lots of things here.

First, you're making a HUGE deal of something that is really not a big deal. If we're at GenCon and you have a hand written battle plan of your first X turns, why would I care? Flexibility wins games, not notes you take about how you would like to your OWN book to play out. Chill out, we're a friendly community here.

Second, in regards to the dice, an example from our local rules (for my personal gaming group) are that if you have to reroll dice or roll the wrong amount, you correct the mistake by rolling the correct amount in it's entirety. It's just easier to keep track of for many reasons irrelevant in this particular thread. While that may not be the case everywhere, it is understandable that someone would think to do so, and most definitely not cheating. It is LITERALLY not changing any of the statistics involved. Flipping a coin a min ago and it landing heads does not make tails suddenly more likely to occur on the next flip. Please stop clogging this thread and instead bring up "cheating" issues offline or elsewhere so that they can be resolved in a manner that doesn't derail the tournament thread.

Sorry if that came out wrong. It's just really frustrating when people do that. Re-rolling dice is a specific effect in the game with its own relative power levels. If you can reroll dice you've already rolled every time you forget to roll enough dice, that is like getting a free extra use of divine challenge or akiros favor. It literally does change the statistics involved. There is no way that if wouldn't. Rolling 2 dice and then rolling 3 dice is statistically different from just rolling 3 dice. That's why divine challenge is useful in the first place.

Well if you don't see anything wrong with someone bringing strategy notes into a high level competitive tournament, nor with no one else being told that this was permitted, even though it's common sense not to do this and even after I explained exactly why it is problematic to do this then I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you.
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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #159 on: January 16, 2017, 07:17:20 AM »
Me and Arxiducs will kick of at 9AM eastern time today.
The Phoenix shall rise.

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #160 on: January 16, 2017, 08:06:38 AM »
Concerning the note:

No reason to argue if it is allowed or not since there is no way to prevent it anyway.
So we just have to allow it for everyone anyway.

The more interesting questions is, how to tell if someone rolls the wrong amount of dice.
There are multiple methods how to proceed then and while I favor a certain way I am fine with anything as long as anyone deals with such a situation in the same manner.
We could, to make things simple, just say, that you always have to re-roll (all the dice) again if you rolled the wrong amount.

I admit I don't particularly like this approach since you potentially help the person who made the mistake in the first place. For example he rolled 5 dices and got 3 non-crits. But he was supposed to roll 4 dices. Now he has the chance to roll again and make more dmg with 4 dice than with his prior throw. Of course, it could also happen that he rolls 8 dmg with his 5 dices and when he is forced to re-roll he only does 2 dmg. But ultimately it is his own fault so no tears from me. I just don't like it that this rule potentially benefits the one who made the error. Someone who misplays in a tournament (rolling the false amount of dice is his responsibility after all) should not profit from it. At least not in a tournament.

Therefore I propose a slightly adjusted ruling: The opponent decides if the one who made the error:
- rerolls the correct amount of dice
- subtracts dice from the prior throw
- adds additional dice to his prior throw

Of course, that rule is tough for the one who made the mistake since when he rolled very good he will be forced to roll again and if he rolled poorly the opponent will make him keep the roll and add/subtract one die or more from the roll.

But to be honest, HOW we do it is not even that important. That we do it in the same way all the time, that is.

I'd like a decision from coshade (who makes the rules for this tournament) and then we just stick to that ruling.


aridigas

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #161 on: January 16, 2017, 08:12:47 AM »
Re-rolling dice is a specific effect in the game with its own relative power levels. If you can reroll dice you've already rolled every time you forget to roll enough dice, that is like getting a free extra use of divine challenge or akiros favor. It literally does change the statistics involved. There is no way that if wouldn't. Rolling 2 dice and then rolling 3 dice is statistically different from just rolling 3 dice. That's why divine challenge is useful in the first place.


Rerolling dice that would be applied is a special event in Mage Wars. Just rerolling some dice isn't. If my Mage is to attack your Grizzly or whatever, does it change the outcome of my attack if I roll 5 dice before, pick them up and proceed to throw my attack dice? No. It does not.
Does it change the outcome of the attack if I make my attack, roll some dice, am not satisfied and use my akiros favor to roll again? Yes. It does.
The only important thing is that you handle these situations in the same manner every time. If I roll 1 die less 2 times and both times roll my ectra die seperately, that's okay. If I reroll the correct amount of dice every time, that's okay as well. If I add one extra die to one attack and reroll the other, that's not okay.
Different people may choose different approaches, so two players might reroll one attack and add a die to the other attack. But that's fine as well.
[Ninja'd by Enti!]

Well if you don't see anything wrong with someone bringing strategy notes into a high level competitive tournament, nor with no one else being told that this was permitted, even though it's common sense not to do this and even after I explained exactly why it is problematic to do this then I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you.

What unfair advantage do you get from bringing strategy notes? You don't have to remember all these things you wrote down. That's it. Strategy notes in your head aren't unfair.

There is no need to tell anyone that something like this is allowed. Noone told me it is allowed to drink a glass of water during play. I did last time. Am I disqualified now?
I am not (hopefully!). Drinking water does not give me an unfair advantage.

I really don't see anything giving unfair advantages that doesn't violates the rules of Mage Wars.
Carrying more cards in your spellbook than allowed?
Planning 3 spells each round?
Channeling 22 mana every turn?
Summoning a Grizzly as a quick action?
These things are unfair. But these things aren't allowed by the rules.

Drinking water?
Carrying sticky notes to make up for your poor memory?
Being completely naked during play?
These aren't unfair. (Some might be weird.) None of these are forbidden.


Most important thing to remember:
This is for fun.




After completely derailing this, is someone available to record MrBubu and me?

Schwenkgott

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #162 on: January 16, 2017, 09:26:27 AM »
Being completely naked during play?

Uhm, do you wear clothes while playing?  :o
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RomeoXero

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #163 on: January 16, 2017, 09:28:20 AM »
Guys, Sharkey asked us to not clog this thread with cheating issues and dice talk. We gotta keep this one clear for tournament updates l. If you really wanna keep talking about this make a new thread.
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Coshade

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Re: ADMW Winter Special - OCTGN Tournament
« Reply #164 on: January 16, 2017, 10:21:30 AM »
I've updated Challonge if anyone is interested in following how close some of these brackets are.

Link to the brackets --> http://challonge.com/ADMWSpecial

If I have missed any of your matches or mages please let me know and I'll update it ASAP.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 10:26:54 AM by Coshade »
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