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Author Topic: Holy Familiar  (Read 3824 times)

ClockWork

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Holy Familiar
« on: November 10, 2016, 06:01:39 AM »
That new Holy Familiar can cast protection and healing spells. I've read elsewhere enchantments don't gain traits until revealed, does that mean she has to cast enchantments revealed, or not at all?

Can the fire imp cast curses face down?

Can direct damage be purchased using Morloch's Torment  on a face down curse cast by the Fire Imp?
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Kelanen

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 06:23:20 AM »
That new Holy Familiar can cast protection and healing spells. I've read elsewhere enchantments don't gain traits until revealed, does that mean she has to cast enchantments revealed, or not at all?

Firstly, you mean sub-types not traits, which are different. The enchantment's still have the sub-types in your spellbook when you select them for planning. You cast them face-down in the normal way, and you are correct they then don't have a subtype when face-down, and get it back when they are revealed.

Can the fire imp cast curses face down?

Yes, same applies.

Can direct damage be purchased using Morloch's Torment  on a face down curse cast by the Fire Imp?

No - because that card has no sub-type as yet.

ClockWork

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 08:20:31 AM »
Read some posts about hidden enchantment subtypes in an older thread, but i don't know of anywhere it explicitly states that a enchantments lose its subtype/s while hidden. Although the Paladin and Siren do clearly show that sub-type "exist" during spellbook building,
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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 08:26:48 AM »
Also, [mwcard=FWQ09] Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword[/mwcard] wouldn't do anything if Enchantments didn't have subtypes in the Planning phase and up to the moment you cast them.
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Kelanen

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 10:08:59 AM »
Read some posts about hidden enchantment subtypes in an older thread, but i don't know of anywhere it explicitly states that a enchantments lose its subtype/s while hidden. Although the Paladin and Siren do clearly show that sub-type "exist" during spellbook building,

It's on a list of things that's been compiled to go in the Rules/FAWQ update I believe.

Essentially, it works this way, because it's the only way those cards can work.

ClockWork

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 02:40:20 AM »

Essentially, it works this way, because it's the only way those cards can work.


 Why does a curse have to lose the curse subtype after being cast by Sectarus, for Sectarus to work? Wouldn't Sectarus still work if the curse it casted maintained is curse-ness all the way to the discard pile?

Asking where it states enchantments lose subtype when hidden. We know spells have subtypes when; in our spellbook, planned, and face up on the table. Creatures maintain traits while in the discard pile. Why do we think enchantments lose subtype immediately after being cast? Is it because it's face down? Do face down, spellbound cards, maintain their spell type and level and traits? If not, is it legal bind any old thing to a wand as long as i don't reveal?
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Kelanen

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2016, 04:23:53 AM »
I'm not a designer, so this is just my opinion:

Cards have to not have sub-types when facedown, because there is no way for the opponent to check them, and that makes it possible to both cheat and be mistaken. It's an unwritten rule for most games to not do stuff like this. It's why in say MtG when you search your library for any card you just grab one and don't reveal it, but when you search for a Sorcery you have to reveal it to prove it's a sorcery.

Sesyrix, Sectarus, Cassiel and Naiya all break this unwritten design rule, because they have to. Enchantments have to stay unrevealed and unknown to an opponent before they are revealed. The lesser of two evils therefore is to take that bit on trust from the player that they got it right, figuring that it will later get revealed at some point. Those cards would would almost certainly be banned from tournament play for a big tournament game like MtG, but MW is more casual, and the decision was obviously that they were happy with this compromise.

As to where it comes from that Facedown enchantments have no subtype - it's been ruled so here on these boards by Laddinface (Designer) and it's in a collated set of his rulings that are not yet in official documents by Exid. You'll find them both on these boards (the Exid list much more easily!).

Do face down, spellbound cards, maintain their spell type and level and traits? If not, is it legal bind any old thing to a wand as long as i don't reveal?

Logically yes they would lose their SUBTYPES (you are confusing these with Traits), not that this has any relevance for cards at present.

It is not legal to bind the wrong card to a wand however, but yes it would be undetected if never revealed, which is the same problem that the above Familiars present.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 05:58:12 AM by Kelanen »

bigfatchef

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 05:20:27 AM »
With or without losing Outs subtype, hidden spells always have to be correct.
I am not looking in the rules now but I understand the game like that it is clear that
- spawnpoints can only cast certain cards. You choose those hidden even if they don't get deployed. You can only place legal cards on the field
- spellbinds like mage wand or familiars get a card connected to use. Most can be changed in diefferent ways and stay hidden the whole time. The bound card has to be a legal one in any case, though.
- FD enchantments  also have to have a legal target

FD enchantments get revealed when used or seeking dispelled. So they are provable. But for the others I don't think so. They go back into the spellbook unseen. This needs fair play or a judge to check all those cards. For big money tournaments (which there aren't any) it would size be possible to check correct play. But for standart games we should simply play fair...

Octgn is checking legality and keeps all things secret. Good choice for tournaments :)

ClockWork

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2016, 06:02:05 AM »
Logically yes they would lose their SUBTYPES (you are confusing these with Traits), not that this has any relevance for cards at present.

Not sure what is Logical about a card losing its subtype, in one specific place, and then gaining it right back. I also don't know where the rules support this. Traits are the bold words in the bottom half of cards, and do in fact a matter while in the discard pile, see "Animate Dead". The relevance for "cards at present" is maybe only Moloch's Torment which cares about the curse subtype

Do the rules talk about losing subtypes anywhere? For any reason? Is it even possible to lose a subtype?
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Kelanen

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2016, 06:07:08 AM »
Logically yes they would lose their SUBTYPES (you are confusing these with Traits), not that this has any relevance for cards at present.

Not sure what is Logical about a card losing its subtype, in one specific place, and then gaining it right back. I also don't know where the rules support this. Traits are the bold words in the bottom half of cards, and do in fact a matter while in the discard pile, see "Animate Dead". The relevance for "cards at present" is maybe only Moloch's Torment which cares about the curse subtype

Do the rules talk about losing subtypes anywhere? For any reason? Is it even possible to lose a subtype?

Yes - Enchantments explicitly lose there subtypes when face-down. Whether you think it logical or right, this is the rule, as  referenced above.

Facedown Deployments and SpellBinds would therefore be logical to be treated the same way, but as far as I am aware it's not been ruled on, and there is no case where it matters. Enchantments have lots of cases where it matters however...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 07:15:15 AM by Kelanen »

ClockWork

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2016, 06:18:30 AM »
My bad guys, sorry it took so many posts. The answer is that it hasn't been added to any rules documents as of yet, but is in fact how stuff works, so says AW.

Very cool,

Can cards lose subtypes for other reasons? Is anything else lost when an enchantment is face down?
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Zuberi

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2016, 06:47:06 AM »
It's important to remember that cards are used to represent multiple things, and that these things are distinct and use different rules despite being represented by the same physical card. A card can be a spell while it is in your spellbook, planned, on a familiar/spawnpoint, in the discard pile, or in the process of being cast. A card can also be an object on the game board. Finally, a card can be hidden, such as with enchantments. Hidden enchantments have no name, traits, subtypes, or effects. It's not that the card is losing our gaining these things, is that it is now being used to represent something entirely different within the game world, and this new thing works by new rules.

ringkichard

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Re: Holy Familiar
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2016, 07:33:01 AM »
Zuberi put it much better than I was going to.

A face down Enchantment card in play has no subtype because it represents an unrevealed enchantment.

That same card has all of its subtypes while it represents a prepared spell during the planning phase.
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