October 06, 2022, 10:53:54 PM

Author Topic: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye  (Read 8614 times)

Schwenkgott

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2016, 04:57:26 AM »
It should at least be logicwise. Once per round the beastmaster can cast a difficult spell with ease. But jinx activates when one of these effortless spells is cast, right?
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Halewijn

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2016, 06:08:17 AM »
I'd think that both Jinx and Mind's Eye don't work with the builder since they are no quick casts. (Based on my gut feeling)
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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2016, 07:32:59 AM »


I would expect Jinx to work.

I'm pretty certain that Jinx does work against a Straywood quickcasting a creature which is exactly the same scenario.

Jinx definetly *does* work against Beastmaster's Quick Summoning ability.

Quote
Quick Summoning
Once per round, the Beastmaster may summon a Level 1 animal creature spell as a *quick spell*

Quote
Jinx
When this creature casts a *quick spell*, you must reveal Jinx during the Counter Spell Step.


But what I described isn't quite exactly the same scenario.

Quote
May cast *Full Spells* as a Quick Action.

The words *quick spell* never appear, and the hypothetical ability never describes the spell as anything other than a Full Spell.

Quote
Goblin Builder
Can cast only Corporeal conjurations which are not attached to an object. He casts those spells as a full action with a range of 0-0.

It's the lack of the magic words *full spell* that are causing this issue.
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aridigas

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2016, 08:22:59 AM »
Given that, lets not rely too heavily on Goblin Builder casting as a "full action" rather than as a "full spell" without some previous precident that the distinction comprises a difference. Are there any other cards worded this way? The solution here may be to make a minor erattum to Goblin Builder to bring it in line with other similar cards.

To me, this is what we absolutely should do.

There are two possibilities:
1) Goblin Builder is meant to use a full action to cast a quick spell as a quick spell.
2) Goblin Builder is meant to use a full action to cast a quick spell as a full spell.

Talking about 1), it is important that the card is worded that way.
If 2) is right, the wording is (slightly) off and might need clarification.


Either way, it is important that Goblin Builder reads full action rather than full spell.

ringkichard

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2016, 08:26:34 AM »
There are two possibilities:
1) Goblin Builder is meant to use a full action to cast a quick spell as a quick spell.
2) Goblin Builder is meant to use a full action to cast a quick spell as a full spell.

This is excellent.
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Kelanen

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2016, 08:49:06 AM »
There are two possibilities:
1) Goblin Builder is meant to use a full action to cast a quick spell as a quick spell.
2) Goblin Builder is meant to use a full action to cast a quick spell as a full spell.

Concisely put - I am sure the answer is #2 however.

#1 seems like inventing hairs to split to me.

Sailor Vulcan

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Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2016, 08:52:56 AM »
It should at least be logicwise. Once per round the beastmaster can cast a difficult spell with ease. But jinx activates when one of these effortless spells is cast, right?

As an aside, it makes a lot more sense if the spell point cost is the effort and the action cost is just how much time it takes to cast the spell. Even in the rule book it says that full spells are slower. Or at least I think it says that, I vaguely remember reading it somewhere anyways.

More difficult spells are spells that require more effort aka more physical energy. The reason you can only include 120 pts is because that's how much your Mage can have memorized well enough to use in a fight at a time and also how much they can use without tiring themselves out completely. Just like how people don't remember everything they learned in their classes the semester before last, but they do remember what they learned in the past couple weeks. I suspect this also would explain the card copy limits. In etheria a warlock can include more than 4 copies of heal, but if he does he will tire out very fast and won't have enough physical energy left for other spells. The copy rule might just be a strongly recommended strategic guideline rather than a hard rule. Because people who don't follow this guideline tend to get exhausted too quickly and lose more fights.

Or at least that's how I imagine it.

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« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 09:04:55 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2016, 08:15:42 PM »
Another possibly important side note to this conversation is that the Paladin may activate auras as a "quick action". This is specifically Not a "quick spell" and cannot be done with the quick cast marker.  I'm not sure if this clarifies anything or just muddies the waters.
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Zuberi

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2016, 12:11:57 AM »
Another possibly important side note to this conversation is that the Paladin may activate auras as a "quick action". This is specifically Not a "quick spell" and cannot be done with the quick cast marker.  I'm not sure if this clarifies anything or just muddies the waters.

Actions and spells are separate and distinct game terms. Nobody is suggesting they are synonymous. But I am arguing that the kind of spell it is depends on the kind of action used to cast it. A Full Spell, by definition, requires a Full Action to cast. And a Quick Spell, by definition, requires a Quick Action. That's what the documents say. So, my argument is that if you change what action is required, you're also changing what kind of spell it is because that's what makes it that kind of spell in the first place.

Another way of thinking about it would be that there aren't two kinds of spells. There's just SPELLS. The game then just uses Quick Spell and Full Spell as a kind of shorthand notation to convey both that something counts as a spell and what action it requires to cast without writing out a lot of text.

aridigas

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2016, 04:40:34 AM »
EDIT: For clarity, the action you use is never a choice. Every action in the game, including spell casts, indicate that they require either a Full Action or a Quick Action. The type of action is never optional.
Quote from: Whirling Strike
Once this round, if this creature uses a full action to make a quick action melee attack, [...]

Whirling strike doesn't say something like "This creature may use a full action", it says "if". No part of the card allows a creatur to change the type of action used.
I know what it is supposed to mean: Don't move before the attack. But as written, it is possible to use a full action to make a quick attack.

wtcannonjr

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2016, 10:16:45 AM »
EDIT: For clarity, the action you use is never a choice. Every action in the game, including spell casts, indicate that they require either a Full Action or a Quick Action. The type of action is never optional.
Quote from: Whirling Strike
Once this round, if this creature uses a full action to make a quick action melee attack, [...]

Whirling strike doesn't say something like "This creature may use a full action", it says "if". No part of the card allows a creatur to change the type of action used.
I know what it is supposed to mean: Don't move before the attack. But as written, it is possible to use a full action to make a quick attack.
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This supports a case for different interactions between the action icons on cards and the actual action type used to take them during an action phase.

We also have the Deployment Phase where spells are cast without any distinction between full or quick actions. Spawnpoints simply take a Cast a Spell action based on the rules on the card, under Spawnpoints and under the Cast Spell Action. This happens separately from the Full or Quick action rules used for casting during the Action Stage. We still may need to distinguish between quick and full spells for a future effect in the Deployment Phase where the rules for action types don't apply.

The intent behind Goblin Builder wording and the possible interactions still needs clarification though.
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wtcannonjr

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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2016, 10:20:59 AM »
Another possibly important side note to this conversation is that the Paladin may activate auras as a "quick action". This is specifically Not a "quick spell" and cannot be done with the quick cast marker.  I'm not sure if this clarifies anything or just muddies the waters.

I think the rules for Special Actions cover this situation. See the bottom right sidebar on page 11 of RAW.
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Re: Goblin Builder and Mind's Eye
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2016, 05:14:38 PM »
so yes..?
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