September 28, 2020, 03:45:50 PM

Author Topic: I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?  (Read 8196 times)

Santar

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Hi! I and my friend have great holy war for this question.
1 ХР, enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?




Borg

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Initiative has no real effect on resolving this.
Initiative only indicates who resolves effects on his objects first.

The Ghoul Rot is a spell from your opponent but it affects your creature, so you resolve all effects on that creature during your initiative turn in the order that you want.
So, in a situation where your creature has 1 HP left
- You can decide to let it regenerate 2 first ( 3 HP left )
- then take the Ghoul Rot ( back to 1 HP left )

Thus, your creature survives the upkeep phase no matter who has initiative.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 08:17:39 AM by Borg »
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Hagen

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Just another classic example:

There is a Mage A (1 HP) and a creature (1 HP + Death Link), and a Mage B with Idol of Pestilence on his side.

If Mage A has the Initiative, he activates the Death Link in his Upkeep first, and survives the Idol of Pestilence effect.

If Mage B has the Initiative, the Idol activates first, and kills Mage A.

Is it right? If so, is it as an example of "In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order." situation from the Rulebook?

Borg

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Just another classic example:

There is a Mage A (1 HP) and a creature (1 HP + Death Link), and a Mage B with Idol of Pestilence on his side.

If Mage A has the Initiative, he activates the Death Link in his Upkeep first, and survives the Idol of Pestilence effect.

If Mage B has the Initiative, the Idol activates first, and kills Mage A.

Is it right? If so, is it as an example of "In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order." situation from the Rulebook?

Hagen, you make the same interpretation error as Santar.
Initiative has nothing to do with it.
Mage A has two effects on him to resolve during upkeep, Lifelink and Idol.
When it's Mage A's turn he decides the order and will normally decide to use the lifelink effect first, then the idol, so he survives and has healed 1 damage total, no matter who has initiative.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 09:43:19 AM by Borg »
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jacksmack

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Problem is when its the other way around. THEN initiative matters.

If warlock has deathlink on a highland unicorn with regen that has 2 life left.
When the warlock has initative he can choose to resolve his deathlink before the horse gets to regen.

Hagen

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Problem is when its the other way around. THEN initiative matters.

If warlock has deathlink on a highland unicorn with regen that has 2 life left.
When the warlock has initative he can choose to resolve his deathlink before the horse gets to regen.
That makes perfect sense, thank you!

Borg

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Problem is when its the other way around. THEN initiative matters.

If warlock has deathlink on a highland unicorn with regen that has 2 life left.
When the warlock has initative he can choose to resolve his deathlink before the horse gets to regen.

That's correct.

Santar and Hagen currently seem to think that each effect triggers in initiative order.
But that's not correct.
All effects trigger at the same time.
Only the resolution of those effects are made in initiative order.
Meaning :
The mage with initiative chooses 1 of his objects and resolves all effects on it in the order he chooses ( so, for example, lifelink first, then idol )
Then he chooses another of his objects that has effects on it and resolves those in the order he chooses...
and so on until he has no more objects with upkeep effects on them.
Then the player who does not have initiative does the same.

So this means that it is possible, as Jacksmack points out, that the Player with initiative chooses to use his Death Link first but in the process of doing that kills the opposing player's Unicorn before that one can regenerate.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:15:38 AM by Borg »
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Hagen

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Just to be sure I got it right (that's still a bit vague). Let's take a slightly different situation.

Mage A has a creature (1 HP) with a Death Link.
Mage B *also* has a Death Link with the same creature.

Player B has the initiative.

Mage A gets to resolve all effects on his creature. Let's say both mages want to activate their Death Link. Who gets the Death Link effect? A player having an Initiative (I think so) or the creature controller?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:36:27 AM by Hagen »

exid

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no 2 time the same enchantment on the same object!

exid

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...but... if you have another enchantment with the same effect as death link, both must be triggered... you need an order.
The player with initiative will choose the order, he will choose to trigger his, healing from the last creature's HP.

Hagen

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no 2 time the same enchantment on the same object!
Ouch... Such a dumb and obvious mistake. Of course.

Hagen

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According to this message by Shad0w, the order of Ghoul Rot and Regeneration (the situation in TS question) is determined by the Initiative. Is it right?



Borg

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According to this message by Shad0w, the order of Ghoul Rot and Regeneration (the situation in TS question) is determined by the Initiative. Is it right?
That is not correct, imo.
The order is not chosen by initiative.
The order is chosen by the player who controls that creature.

The player who controls the Ghoul Rot has no say in this as it does not affect one of his creatures.
You only have say over effects on your own creatures ( objects )
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ExcaliburTK

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If there is a timing issue then the player with initiative decides, this means if a creature has 2 effects controlled by different players then the player with initiative decides what happens first.

in the case of the rulebook example burns are not controlled by your opponent therefore the creatures controller decides the order in which the burns and regenerate take place

in the example of death link vs regenerate, since the effects are controlled by different players, the player with initiative decides in what order they take place.


edit: what i meant to say is that because the death link effects your opponents mage and your creature then the warlock, if he has initiative, can choose to heal triggering the damage before your regen.

in the case of ghoul rot vs regen it is two effects that are on your creature, therefore you choose in what order they resolve.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:15:39 PM by ExcaliburTK »

jacksmack

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That is not correct, imo.
The order is not chosen by initiative.
The order is chosen by the player who controls that creature.

The player who controls the Ghoul Rot has no say in this as it does not affect one of his creatures.
You only have say over effects on your own creatures ( objects )

never the less thats how it is....

There is no effect on the creature with deathlink until the owner of deathlink (the warlock) decides that he wish to do this. And then its fully resolved: warlock heal himself and place damage on the creature. Damage on creature is not delayed - its done right here and then no matter what other effects are on the creature.

And its the iniative player that decides the order if there is a conflict of interest.

While deathlink is cast on a creature, its actually the Warlock that is the affected creature when it comes to determine ownership effect.
A bit like a the creature with plagued cast on it is not the creature that decides when this happens for all the creatures in the zone only itself.

talking about plagued... With initiative - if i have a creature with plague on it and 1 Health remaining, then i could ask you to resolve the plague effect first. And when its my turn ill start with my creautre that has plague to spare my other creautres in zone.