July 26, 2021, 03:33:57 PM

Author Topic: Moving and force hold  (Read 3377 times)

RomeoXero

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Moving and force hold
« on: June 27, 2017, 02:05:28 AM »
So i was wondering, seems like a dumb question but if my opponent is done and its onto my action and he has a face down force hold on me, then i choose to activate and move. When must the force hold be flipped? Before i move? Before i activate? Can i "declare" a move and then be interrupted and so not move? Can i move, have it flipped and then have to cancel my move so to speak?
Enfeeble does something similar but slow is different and you want it to be a surprise. What im wondering is if force hold and crush CAN be surprises or must they be revealed first to have an effect?
Sorry if i make no sense. Been a long day. Lol!
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jacksmack

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 03:30:11 AM »
Its a matter of when there is a 'window' to reveal.

If i remember correctly (passage attack happens before leaving zone?) the only way to cancel your move and thus waste it is if you choose to walk through a wall with the passage attack trait. Then he could choose to reveal after damage is applied before you leave the zone.
This is because an attack sequence provides you options of revealing between steps.

If no such thing happens before you leave the zone then he cannot reveal this way to make your action wasted.

Instead he will have to reveal just after you flip the action marker before you choose an action.
This means that you are free to do an attack, cast a full action spell etc.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:21:16 AM by jacksmack »

Zuberi

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 03:37:10 AM »
You can reveal after any of the steps of a Move Action. The steps can be found on the back of the 4e rulebook, but I'll repeat them here:
1. Declare Move
2. Pay Costs
3. Leave Zone Effects
4. Walls
5. Move
6. Enter Zone Effects

Step 5: Move is when you actually change zones. As long as the enchantment is revealed before this step, then it will prevent you from changing zones.

jacksmack

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 03:47:07 AM »
You can reveal after any of the steps of a Move Action. The steps can be found on the back of the 4e rulebook, but I'll repeat them here:
1. Declare Move
2. Pay Costs
3. Leave Zone Effects
4. Walls
5. Move
6. Enter Zone Effects

Step 5: Move is when you actually change zones. As long as the enchantment is revealed before this step, then it will prevent you from changing zones.

When was this changed?

Zuberi

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2017, 04:19:09 AM »
With the 4th edition. Couple of years ago, approximately.

Zuberi

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 04:26:49 AM »
Which is not meant to shame you for not knowing. When the game was first made, the rule was exactly as you stated in your first comment. But at that time moving was a one step process. You just....moved. They realized that movement needed a little more structure as to exactly when different things happened and so they created steps for it, which were first put into the supplement. At the time though, enchantments still weren't allowed to be revealed between these steps. It stayed that way for nearly a year. By the time they finally said that enchantments could be revealed between these steps, same as for attack steps and spell casting steps, the game had been out for about 3 years. It's very understandable that many people are still playing by the old rules.

But the current rules, which you'll have to abide by in official tournaments and such, are as I stated. Move actions have steps and you can reveal between them. As long as you reveal before Step 5: Move, you can potentially cancel the move.

jacksmack

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2017, 06:55:38 AM »
I remember that the steps to moving was introduced as you say without possibility to reveal between the steps.

Must have missed that revealing is now allowed in between move steps.

DevilsVendetta

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 09:08:31 AM »
Just the way this is all worded now, it sounds like you can have someone take wall damage but still not let them leave the zone, that can't be right.

jacksmack

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 10:05:50 AM »
Just the way this is all worded now, it sounds like you can have someone take wall damage but still not let them leave the zone, that can't be right.

Thats how it is. Assuming that they choose to move through a wall with the passage attack trait.
(or your using force push and force hold.)

Just moving through the poison gas wall that has chance to cripple has same effect. If you attempt to move through but roll cripple on the effect dice then you don't leave the zone.

DevilsVendetta

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 10:44:44 AM »
That seems broken.

Enti

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 10:49:56 AM »
imho it's kind of funny ^^

Powlich

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 12:55:04 PM »
I guess you can have your opponent's creature pay 1 mana for suppression orb, and then reveal force hold to prevent it from actually moving, since it happens during the "pay costs" step. But what about chains of agony? Is that also a part of "pay costs"?

Zuberi

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2017, 04:55:48 PM »
Yes, you could stop them from moving after they've already paid for the move and even after they've been attacked by an intervening wall. The Supplement entry for Chains of Agony is unfortunately outdated, but does make it clear that it is supposed to be taken before you move to the new zone. I'd personally consider it as a cost that occurs during the Pay Cost step just because it feels like a cost to me, but you could legitimately argue that it happens during the Declare Move step or even during the Leave Zone Effects step. If your group can't reach consensus, going strictly RAW, even though they're outdated and were written before the movement steps existed, it should probably occur during the Declare Move step.

bigfatchef

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2017, 08:57:54 AM »
Just the way this is all worded now, it sounds like you can have someone take wall damage but still not let them leave the zone, that can't be right.
I didn't know this and must say that is super anti-intuitive and anti theme. I don't like such rules.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Moving and force hold
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 09:05:32 AM »
Just the way this is all worded now, it sounds like you can have someone take wall damage but still not let them leave the zone, that can't be right.
I didn't know this and must say that is super anti-intuitive and anti theme. I don't like such rules.
Well you get a wall bash when you get pushed into a wall that doesn't allow passage. Although I'm not sure how to visualize someone going partially through a wall and then being restrained without then being stuck inside the wall. And yet they don't take any more wall damage after that. Does the force hold yank them away from the wall? I mean it is shaped like a big fist. That would be kinda funny.

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