December 02, 2020, 07:16:49 am

Author Topic: commander's cape  (Read 3089 times)

exid

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commander's cape
« on: February 22, 2018, 01:47:03 pm »
"when you cast or reveal a command spell"
does an command enchantment cost 1 mana less when casting and when revealing... or is it bad worded?

zot

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 02:23:28 pm »
some command spells are incantations, and would get the bonus when cast. others are enchantments and would only get the bonus when revealed.

Puddnhead

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 02:29:59 pm »
"when you cast or reveal a command spell"
does an command enchantment cost 1 mana less when casting and when revealing... or is it bad worded?

This is the exact same wording as Arcane Ring, Death Ring, Druid's Leaf Ring, Force Ring, Ring of Asyra, Ring of Command, Ring of Curses AND Ring of Ocean's Depths.

I know you're a smart dude, Exid, but it just seems like you're trying to find loopholes that aren't there.
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exid

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 02:37:33 pm »
"when you cast or reveal a command spell"
does an command enchantment cost 1 mana less when casting and when revealing... or is it bad worded?

This is the exact same wording as Arcane Ring, Death Ring, Druid's Leaf Ring, Force Ring, Ring of Asyra, Ring of Command, Ring of Curses AND Ring of Ocean's Depths.

I know you're a smart dude, Exid, but it just seems like you're trying to find loopholes that aren't there.
ring of command sais: "enchantments only recieve..." (I don't have the other cards under my eyes)

If there's no problem I'm happy, but if there is one (and it seems there is one here) I prefer to know how to play it befor I encounter it during a game.
Don't you? What would you answer if your opponent would take the discount 2 times?

exid

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 03:07:30 pm »
well...
I know some players think that to many rules destroy the fun. I think that a precise and solid rule set protects the fun.
on this one, I would say enchantments would pay 1 mana less 1 time, but it's not solid.

zot

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 03:28:35 pm »
the ring will function a maximum of once per round whether it is from an incantation discount or an enchantment discount. never both in the same round.

Puddnhead

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 04:18:24 pm »
Alright, so after a LONG discussion and rereading ALL of the discount cards...Rules As Written seem to indicate that spells ALWAYS have subtypes and you don't have to prove those subtypes in order to be able to cast the spell (Cassiel, Gurmash, Serseiryx).

Therefore, it seems that Commander's Cape (historical precedent not being a reason for anything in this broken game) would grant the discount when casting a face down command spell.  The bonus only applies ONCE per round across ALL options, however.  So you cannot claim the discount on a soldier or a command incantation/battle order or command reveal if you have already claimed the bonus on a face down enchantment earlier in the round.

For the record, I would prefer that historical precedent be observed and the cape NOT provide the discount...but there are far more broken things that need errata first.
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Kharhaz

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 07:10:10 pm »
The bonus only applies ONCE per round across ALL options, however.  So you cannot claim the discount on a soldier or a command incantation/battle order or command reveal if you have already claimed the bonus on a face down enchantment earlier in the round.


citation?

Off the cuff I cannot think of a specific rule that says that you cannot have multiple discounts applied to the same cast.

Kharhaz

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 07:17:17 pm »
The bonus only applies ONCE per round across ALL options, however.  So you cannot claim the discount on a soldier or a command incantation/battle order or command reveal if you have already claimed the bonus on a face down enchantment earlier in the round.


citation?

Off the cuff I cannot think of a specific rule that says that you cannot have multiple discounts applied to the same cast.

Never mind I reread that.

Yes the cape says once per round.

I thought you meant that you would not be able to apply the cape discount and the ring of command discount on the same spell. Which you can of course.

Nothing to see, move along

Arkdeniz

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 03:45:27 am »
Rules As Written seem to indicate that spells ALWAYS have subtypes and you don't have to prove those subtypes in order to be able to cast the spell (Cassiel, Gurmash, Serseiryx).

I don't like this view at all.

Cards always have a subtype, true.
But the examples provided are all familiars that have no option but to cast certain subtypes of spell. When Gurmash casts a spell you know it has to be a command spell. There is no doubt about it, so nobody should expect to ask for, or show, proof of the subtype.

The Mage, on the other hand, can cast anything. You cannot assume that the spell is of any subtype, and while you could ask for proof, you cannot expect to be shown any. The whole point of face down enchantments cast by a mage is the "it could be anything!" factor, after all. 

I argue that until it is revealed, a face down enchantment's subtype is an accounting matter only, useful only to delineate who can cast it.

From the rulebook about enchantments:

"When you cast this spell, it creates a magical "matrix" on the target. At this point, it is not fully formed and exists only as magical potential, with no effect on the battle. When the spell is revealed later, the caster "completes" the spell by adding additional power. It is only then that the enchantment takes form and can affect the target." (my emphasis)

This suggests strongly to me that a face down enchantment is nothing. It is not a command spell, it is not a healing spell. It becomes these things only when they are flipped face up and the word 'Command' or 'Healing' is visible to all.

Until it is revealed, an enchantment is a Schrodinger's Enchantment. It is a command spell and a healing spell and a curse (and so on) all at the same time, and yet not one of these things. Only when observed is its actual state confirmed.

To suggest that a face down enchantment can be said to be any specific subtype is unprovable until it is revealed. And if you cannot prove it you can't apply a discount to it, because unlike a familiar-cast spell, it could potentially be anything.

I say the Cape should not be able to provide a discount to a face down enchantment.


I'll use another counter example to try to prove why it would be silly to give face down enchantments a subtype.

A creature has Mind Shield on it.
The opponent's Naiya casts a face down enchantment on that creature.
The owner of the Mind Shield reveals it during the Counterspell step and removes the new enchantment, on the grounds that since naiya cast the spell it is clearly a song, therefore of the psychic subtype, which is affected by the Mind Shield.
The Naiya owner points out that the spell could technically be a Healing Madrigal, and therefore not psychic and not affected by the Mind Shield. But he won't flip the card to prove it.

Now, who in this situation has the right of it? Clearly the Naiya owner has the advantage, because of the inherent uncertainty about what the spell is. 99.99999% of the time it will not be a Madrigal and instead a psychic song of some sort, but until it can demonstrably be shown to be a psychic spell the Mind Shield has to remain inert.

Like the Mind Shield, the commander's cape must remain inert until the enchantment is revealed, becasue the person wanting to use the power cannot state with certainty that the enchantment is a Command. 

Sorry for the big rant about what seems a teeny tiny point, but I think it warrants the discussion.
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exid

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 06:02:39 am »
I think an unrevealed enchantment is "nothing".
but, before that, an enchantment, during its casting, is a spell with subtypes.

the familiars can only cast the enchantment-spells with the right subtypes.
and the rings (cape, etc.) only give a discount for the enchantment-spells with the right subtype.

therefor the commander's cape as written give 2 mana discount on command enchantment, since it's not written that it doesn't (as on ring of command).
Was it intended?


About mind shield:
the word "respectively" indicates that the enchantments aren't canceled when casted but only when revealed.

Kaarin

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 08:52:11 am »
During casting any spell retains its properties like target and subtypes. That's why you can't cast psychic enchantment on psychic immune creature.
Only after resolve spell step enhancements temporarily lose their properties.
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Puddnhead

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 09:05:56 am »
I absolutely agree that the cape shouldn't give the discount, however there is no text anywhere claiming that it can't, so the only reason I feel that it shouldn't is because nothing else does.  Therefore it's an argument from historical precedent which holds no grounds for those wishing to play "Rules As Written".

I believe it says in the rules that you can prep ANY card onto a spawnpoint or familiar, but they can only CAST certain types.  So you have no idea without actually using Reveal Magic or Seeking Dispel, whether Cassiel's controller actually followed the rules.  If it is discovered that someone broke the rules they lose the spell.  If it is not discovered.....oh well.  Current text on Commander's Cape suggests that it follows the Familiar pattern rather than the Ring pattern.

I personally feel that this is an oversight on behalf of Arcane Wonders and all of the playtesters.  As a playtester myself, I'm sorry.  I will endeavor to do a better job of focusing on the wording in the future.

In the meantime....enjoy your FREE Brace Yourself. (Enchanter's Ring + Commander's Cape)
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Kharhaz

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 10:55:15 am »
From the rulebook about enchantments:

"When you cast this spell, it creates a magical "matrix" on the target. At this point, it is not fully formed and exists only as magical potential, with no effect on the battle. When the spell is revealed later, the caster "completes" the spell by adding additional power. It is only then that the enchantment takes form and can affect the target." (my emphasis)


First, if this bit of flavor text was taken at face value then you could not target hidden enchantments and cards like [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ01]Harshforge Monolith[/mwcard] would not be able to function properly, since were are now giving hidden enchantments traits (wrap your mind around that) .

Now story time :D

Spells always have subtypes, names, etc.

It's why you can't legally put two hidden enchantments of the same name on a creature, but IT CAN HAPPEN.

When I cast a bear strength on your creature I dont have to ask if the current hidden enchantments are bear strengths to make sure its a legal cast. If you then reveal a prior hidden enchantment on the creature that happens to be a bear strength, I don't have to remove my hidden enchantment even though I know its not allowed to be cast on that target, the rules are very clear on when and where you check for target errors.

Now that sounds funny because if you have a revealed bear strength on a creature it's an illegal move to put a hidden bear strength on that creature, but it's 100% legal for a creature to have two enchantments of the same name unknowingly.

The only defense you have at this point is the bit of the rules where you are not able to shuffle or mix enchantments. Order that they are placed is important for opposing traits and such so when some throws a free hidden enchantment down on a creature I would make a note or place a mana token on it. If, when revealed it is not a command thenthey lost spellbook points and an action casting it.

All things considered it is a minor issue at best.

Using your Naiya example, you can totally gamble your mind shield on the Naiya card. Mind shield is not a mandatory reveal. So when she casts an enchantment on your creature that's between you and Asyra. Mind shield also has text to allow it to function as an immediate reveal when a psychic enchantment is revelaed and
work accordingly.

Then you have instances like Izimbila. Her ability text is always "active" even though she is not resolved. Much like the X value issue where the ability text explains what that cost is she has an text ability that describs what additional subtypes, if any, she has. That's why a barracks or a lair can cast her.

<More on this later>

@Puddin
If you control a Familiar during the
Planning Phase, you may select a
spell for it to cast during the round. The
Familiar may have restrictions on the
types of spells you may choose. Place the spell face
down near your Familiar, and tell your opponent that
it is the Familiarís spell. Only your Familiar may cast
that spell during the round.

It's not crystal clear but I would say no. It has to prepare what it is allowed to cast.







Arkdeniz

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Re: commander's cape
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 02:00:58 pm »
From the rulebook about enchantments:

"When you cast this spell, it creates a magical "matrix" on the target. At this point, it is not fully formed and exists only as magical potential, with no effect on the battle. When the spell is revealed later, the caster "completes" the spell by adding additional power. It is only then that the enchantment takes form and can affect the target." (my emphasis)


First, if this bit of flavor text was taken at face value then you could not target hidden enchantments and cards like [mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ01]Harshforge Monolith[/mwcard] would not be able to function properly, since were are now giving hidden enchantments traits (wrap your mind around that) .


I disagree.

The flavour text, as you put it, goes to intent of the rules (pax, RAW folk!) and certainly does not interfere with the gameplay in the ways you suggest. If you picture the face down enchantment as a blob of magical energy without much form it can still be dispelled and still affected by the magic-dampening power of harshforge (hence the need for the mage to expend more power to maintain it. It is not as if it has no existence at all.

I am not sure what you mean by giving hidden enchantments traits, though. Clearly haven't managed to get my head around that bit.


And as far as Izimbila goes, her subtype text only matters during spellbook creation. Once the game starts and the mage is on the board, the seeming option provided by the card's subtype text is moot. See here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18390.msg87528#msg87528   
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