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Author Topic: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?  (Read 8307 times)

Shad0w

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 12:00:41 PM »
I said this before but it needs to be repeated. While the Lock currently has some of the best equips in the game his powers do not contribute to a win nearly as much as some of the other mage power sets.

Yes the Lock can be underwhelming when you read his powers, BUT this class only equips are some of the best in the game.

Helm
34% attack ignore is pretty good for the cost
the closest thing to compare this to is the wizard cloak. To me the passive 34% ignore is better than the 2 mana per attack. When playing the wizard you can save up 8+ mana and make 4 or more attacks each turn. Since all mages start at 9+ channel it is pretty easy to do.

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Nihilistiskism

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 12:09:54 PM »
Quote from: "Koz" post=2549
Thank you Hedge, Nihil and Shadow.  I'm glad to see that my analysis wasn't completely off base.  Both Hedge and Nihil I know from another game and both are very competent players who were real threats in the tournament scene.  I value both of their imputs since I know they are both good players (even if we don't always agree  ;) ).  Shadow has said he is also a well experienced tournament player so I value that kind of input as well.  

I really like the Warlock and will continue to play him and I'm glad to hear that there are some cards coming that will work well with his abilities.  As things stand right now though I would probably pick the Wizard or the Beastmaster for a tournament.  The Priestess is really good too, but, like Nihil, I'm concerned with the time limt and tie-breaker system.  If a good Priestess build comes up that can win in around an hour I'd consider her for tournament play as well (because her Temples are crazy good).


I found the quick Priestess build. She'll be MY go-to for tournament play, I think.

Thanks for the kind words.

-nihil
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mitkosim

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2012, 12:19:23 PM »
Very well put, Nitz! I was thinking this too and am glad other people do as well.

Back to the Warlock's innate abilities, I actually think his Curseweaving is pretty great. I don't look at it from the perspective of saving me having to double up on curses (because I actually don't think it can do that - a dispel would ruin your day then) but rather of allowing me to deal my curses out much more freely. A hypothetical deck based around flyers, for example, that starts you off with Thunderift Falcons and then transitions into angels will illustrate this. At the beginning a couple of birds pops out and rush to start harassing you (let's pretend for some reason you don't have the whip with the reach) - at this point you have a choice - deal with them at range (probably playing precious attack cards), weather their assault or maim their wings. For anyone other than the warlock maiming their wings is probably not an option because what would we do when the angels come out? We need that card for then. But the warlock just pulls out his loom of curses, brings one of those annoying falcons down for him and his creatures to tear apart and then takes back that valuable card. I have actually used that strategy (not against flyers - in general) against BM hordes to great effect - that Fox that has one health left - let's Chain it in agony. That pet you have - let's enfeeble it, etc. Ones those threats are out of the way I still get to use those cards on more important things. Also, as a side note, Curseweaving could allow you to use an EPIC curse more than once ... someday ;)

Shad0w

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2012, 12:29:05 PM »
The trick is the current batch of curses we do not have any that are auto include in most Lock builds. That being said once we start to see some high power curses this could be the focus of an entire build. I just do not see it being being a good option at this current time.  It still does come in handy once in a while.
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Mestrahd

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2012, 12:53:57 PM »
I just wanted to say that I thought his Demonhide Armor was lame too at first. But, then I realized it's unavoidable, CRITICAL damage. Which means that even though it's only one die, you still have a 33% chance to do 2 damage for free. It would be nice if it came with a resistance, but that's a trade-off you have to make.

Gewar

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2012, 12:58:51 PM »
Ok - I'll try to go a litle bit further into "Warlock is a good combo".
But first - if you wish to compare Lightning and Fire effect, you should compare Daze to Burn and Stun to 2 Burn (more or less) - and Daze and Stun are more deffensive abilities, so Fire has bigger pure damage.
Also - many of nature's spells are weak to fire, so even if Beastmaster may have better pet, he has big weaknes vs. Warlock.

Pentagram - it gains mana whenever an enemy creature is damaged by friendly creature - so it gains mana when you do, what you'll be doing anyway - attacking your enemy. Giving mana to Temple of Asyra is trade-off (your Clerics are not guarding/attacking/healing). For Wizard, on the other hand, creatures are not so important, so spawnpoint is less worthy investition.

Gate to Hell - meele +1 for demons isn't much for 12 mana, but giantic attack on almost whole arena is something worthy consideration. Mayby not for 24 mana, but hey! it gives your demons meele +1 and gives you some tactical adventage with possibility to summon creatures in the other place.

Pentagram and Blood Reaper - those gives you benefits for doing, what you want to do - killing your enemies.  

Pentagram is described above.

Blood Reaper costs you no mana, heals you when attacking (so when is doing it's job) and since your opponent would be damaged anyway, Bloodthirsty is almost pure bonus. Sure, you will not want to make Blood Reapers again and again, but Dark Pact Slayer and Helion both has staying power (especially when your enemies are cursed). And you have more life than anybody else, so you can pay it one or twice.
Goran has Bloodthirsty too and you have another strong offence.

Demonhide Armor, Lash of Hellfire,  Battle Skill, Fire specialisation - those ake killing your opponents fast and easy.
Demonhide Armor isn't the best deffensive equipment, but it adds a little to your offence.
Lash of Hellfire is simply strong - esspecially with your Battle Skill.
Fire school adventages are described above.
And again - your life makes it easier to go fully offensive.

Moloch's Torment, Curseweaving and Ring of Curses are another combo and not really tradeof, since weakening your enemy is something you like to do anyway + they do not cost much. Curses (and more life) are Warlock's substitute for much weaker healing skills - weak opponent would not damage you much.
Plus you have your Blood Reaper.

There are some good dark magic for healing too:
Drain Life - you are healing and damaging in one action. No trade-offs.
Same with Death Link - you are closer to win and further away from lose.

Helm of Fear - this is stronger than you think. Why? Because it's ability isn't Deffence -> you can have it and deffence. It is always good to have two chances to avoid attack.
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Koz

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2012, 05:19:46 PM »
Quote from: "Nitz" post=2550
I think the issue with the Warlock is when you compare him to the three mages at the same time, he seems inferior.  Everyone does something he does better, or at least more effeciently.  As you've said, his spell list of dark and fire is really good, but not as good as the Wizard who can take Fire and Arcane, or Lightning and Arcane (if you believe that is better).  He can buff a pet, but not as well as the Beastmaster, who can buff and get pets out faster.  He has a high starting life and some ability to do damage for heal, but nowhere near as effeciently as the priestess can heal.  These are all true, and certainly make him feel a little under loved at first blush.  However, if you compare him to each mage individually, in my mind you start to see where he shines.

For example, the beastmaster does some really nice stuff with his creatures, but the Warlock can buff a creature too, just not as well.  On the other hand, his ability to take fire spells for 1/3 of the cost of a beastmaster is huge, and goes a long way towards dealing with the beastmasters weenie rush as well.  Against the mage, Arcane may be more useful than Dark, but I would suggest he get's more use out of arcane spells too.  I'd rather teleport my 9 dice rolling Warlock into combat with your mage than my slow hydra who cost me a full cast and 16 mana, at that point paying 4 to put it in my deck holds a value at least equal to the mages deck cost of 2.  Same could be said for a spell like nullify that can protect the Lash of Hellfire, which to me is way more valuable than any Wizard equipment i put out, even the elemental wand.  Further, volteric shield and +1 mana channel are really nice, but I really enjoy +1 innate melee die as well and think it is on par with the shield when you consider the wizard is trying to move around and not get hit and the warlock is usually trying to get in people's faces.  Plus, the shield is 3 mana and can be avoided, or even under utilized if he's plinked by a small attack.  It's great, but I don't think it's leagues above the innate _+1 melee dice.  Versus the priestess, the warlock has mulitiple ways to shut down her healing, which can negate one of her best assets.  She has no way to reciprecate and shut down his primary asset of damage dealt, other than to cast healing, which as I've said, can be shut down.  He has the extra life (equal to a minor heal +) so he can shut down healing early and win an attrition battle, or heal right before shutting heals off for the game as a late game move.  Could a priestess also shut off healing, yes, would that be stupid on her part, unless it was the extreme end game, yes.  

So from my limited perspective, what i see is this.  the Warlock when compared to the rest of the game seems to be second fiddle to other mages, however, I would suggest he is the second best at what the other mages are best at.  Therefore, while his innate abilities might be lacking when you look at certain aspects across the whole game, when you compare mages one to one, he is very strong becuase he's good at that mages strength, but also better than them at those other areas to.  Also, I would suggest this is true without having to change his build up much.  

on a quick aside, I love the imagery of lighting, and I think your point to the effects is a good one.  however, I would point out it's a lot easier to get  a burn effect to go off than it is stun, and in my mind the effects would rank thus  daze < Burn 1 < burn 2 < Stun.  So for me, that balances out, but if you put daze above burn 1, then fair enough.


This is a good analysis and I think we basically agree but I'm just not sold on the idea he's "very strong".  I think he is good, but a bit short.  

Basically I look at it like this.  If I am playing with the sole intention of winning (like in a tournament) and I want to play an in your face beat-down style deck, I'd go with the Beastmaster because I think he does it best.  If I want to play an attack spell focused deck, I would go with the Wizard, because I think he does that best.  If I wanted to go with a swarm I'd go with a Beastmaster.  If I wanted to go big creature beat-down I'd go with the Priestess (because the angels are amazing) or the Beastmaster.  

I just don't really see a line of play in this game right now that makes me think "the Warlock does that best".  But he's still way cool, he certainly doesn't suck, I still intend to always have a build with him just because he's fun to play.

Thank you though for the in-depth response, it's got some good points in it and given me some things to chew on.

Nihilistiskism

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2012, 06:12:39 PM »
Quote from: "Gewar" post=2556
Ok - I'll try to go a litle bit further into "Warlock is a good combo".
But first - if you wish to compare Lightning and Fire effect, you should compare Daze to Burn and Stun to 2 Burn (more or less) - and Daze and Stun are more deffensive abilities, so Fire has bigger pure damage.
Also - many of nature's spells are weak to fire, so even if Beastmaster may have better pet, he has big weaknes vs. Warlock.

Pentagram - it gains mana whenever an enemy creature is damaged by friendly creature - so it gains mana when you do, what you'll be doing anyway - attacking your enemy. Giving mana to Temple of Asyra is trade-off (your Clerics are not guarding/attacking/healing). For Wizard, on the other hand, creatures are not so important, so spawnpoint is less worthy investition.

Gate to Hell - meele +1 for demons isn't much for 12 mana, but giantic attack on almost whole arena is something worthy consideration. Mayby not for 24 mana, but hey! it gives your demons meele +1 and gives you some tactical adventage with possibility to summon creatures in the other place.

Pentagram and Blood Reaper - those gives you benefits for doing, what you want to do - killing your enemies.  

Pentagram is described above.

Blood Reaper costs you no mana, heals you when attacking (so when is doing it's job) and since your opponent would be damaged anyway, Bloodthirsty is almost pure bonus. Sure, you will not want to make Blood Reapers again and again, but Dark Pact Slayer and Helion both has staying power (especially when your enemies are cursed). And you have more life than anybody else, so you can pay it one or twice.
Goran has Bloodthirsty too and you have another strong offence.

Demonhide Armor, Lash of Hellfire,  Battle Skill, Fire specialisation - those ake killing your opponents fast and easy.
Demonhide Armor isn't the best deffensive equipment, but it adds a little to your offence.
Lash of Hellfire is simply strong - esspecially with your Battle Skill.
Fire school adventages are described above.
And again - your life makes it easier to go fully offensive.

Moloch's Torment, Curseweaving and Ring of Curses are another combo and not really tradeof, since weakening your enemy is something you like to do anyway + they do not cost much. Curses (and more life) are Warlock's substitute for much weaker healing skills - weak opponent would not damage you much.
Plus you have your Blood Reaper.

There are some good dark magic for healing too:
Drain Life - you are healing and damaging in one action. No trade-offs.
Same with Death Link - you are closer to win and further away from lose.

Helm of Fear - this is stronger than you think. Why? Because it's ability isn't Deffence -> you can have it and deffence. It is always good to have two chances to avoid attack.


I'm quoting this because I think it's a really good representation of "on paper" vs. "in practice."

This series of analysis and arguments are directed toward how "good" the Warlock is "on paper."

And are starkly contrasted by how the Warlock plays "in practice."

The majority of these arguments, while analytically sound, simply don't hold up to practice, because all the arguments commit the fallacy of assumption, in that they all assume that things are going swimmingly, i.e. these arguments are constructed toward a game of Solitaire, where the opposing player is a nonentity on the field. Too many assumptions:

*fast and easy
*especially when enemies are cursed
*when you do what you'll be doing anyway
*plus you have your blood reaper

Sorry. Doesn't add up.

-nihil
Take a shower, don't talk like a junior high dropout, and stop being such a fatty.

Gewar

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2012, 03:42:11 AM »
I realize that you will not do what you whant all the time - neither with Warlock nor with other Mages.
"In practice" we are hearing that Warlock wwins most of the games for some players (see posts above).
Subject of this threed is how Warlock's abilities are similar power to abilities of other Mages - and this is very academic discussion, since noone is using their abilieties in vain. But SOME of those synergies will not be countered if used over and over again.
Those are not assumptions - those are your adventages you should be trying to use and if you manage to succesfully put on the Arena SOME of them, they will synergize nicely.
It does add up.
"I've seen this spell before - sold in alleys, brothels, and taverns. Men want more life. Always, they want more life."
- Rae Ashar, Wench of the Flying Dragon

Shad0w

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Re: Is the Warlock the weakest Mage?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2012, 09:32:56 AM »
I would say the best way to approach this would be to look at the mage and the school and class equips. Cureweaving of all the mage abilities currently one of the weakest. Once more curses come out this will be stronger. Bloodreaper takes life of your max total so even the 2 point heal makes it hard to justify in longer games once you get past the first one.If I do summon a second Bloodreaper my new max health is 26 putting me below every other mage..
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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