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Author Topic: So... Magewars... what are they for?  (Read 5433 times)

Tokata

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So... Magewars... what are they for?
« on: December 12, 2012, 02:17:45 PM »
So generaly the points i got were "We do Pitfights so they don't fight outside" - but what was the original reason for this?

Are the mages sanctioned? Personal Glory? Political Descisions made through fights? Boredom?

Didn't find anything in the backgroundstory for this, just that there is an institution called magewars in a special city and that it is supported by the countries / organisations of the mages who fight in there^^

Do any1 got anything more specific wich i overlooked?^^

Edit: Ok so after some time has passed without response - realy noone knows why they set up the mage wars? we get tons of background of the world but nothing refered to the game? ;) ^^ there has got to be somethign!^^

Djamael

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 08:53:57 PM »
Good question. Maybe itís still open to debate amongst the creators.
But as far as possible reasons go, here are the most likely:
[ol]
  [li] Mage orders send their mage in duels to the death in order to test and perfect their might and strategies in anticipation of a major conflict.[/li]
  [li] Mages are so hubris-filled (egotistical) and bored of being so powerful that training for a duel in the Mage Wars is one of the only interesting thing to do with their power (doesnít really fit with the Priestesses or with the Wizardsí plot to stop other mages from channeling).[/li]
  [li] They are so proud they want to prove their God or order is the best of them all and are ready to die to prove this point.[/li]
  [li] They fight in the arena to avoid killing civilians pointlessly in wars. Corollary: major political disputes are settled in Mage War duels. Other corollary: Warlocks are outnumbered in any conflict and they prefer their chances of killing other mages in duels rather than in open war.[/li]
  [li] Mages are cursed or forced to fight in the Mage War by some extraordinarily powerful entity or external force.[/li]
  [li] The rewards of winning duels outweigh the risk of dying. (Unlikely... Why would Westlock give such riches or power away?)[/li]
  [li] A code of honor exists amongst mages that oblige them to accept challenges. (Kind of like Kanly in Dune)[/li]

[/ol]

My guess is: a combination of 1, 3, 4 and 7 and a little bit of 2 for some brash mages.

Shad0w

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 09:20:44 PM »
I am going to see if I can get some info from the story team. Once we get the set to the printer.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Tokata

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 06:34:53 AM »
Thanks :D
Its just confusing to know wich countrys are ruled by wich leader, even some personal storys, but no idea why exactly we fight ;)

Edit: To Djamal:
Your 4th point is already stated. (The woodelfs support the mage wars because they fear the damage that an actual war could cause) but i guess this isn't true for every possible mage (a necromancer or warlock for example woudn't care about destruction^^)
to your 5th point: Magewars seems to be an institution not that old, since there were former "regular"-wars including mages (the woodelfs needs to restore the balance of their forest, so they have been devasted in a time bevore the mage wars^^)
7th point: Code of honor: Why should a necromancer or warlock stick to that?^^
Personal Motivation (For proud, fighting for gods) - that would be "just for fun fights" not explaining why the magewars prevent wars / prevent fighting mages in wars
Mage orders send their ppl to die: Warlocks don't realy have an order, also i highly doubt that the oh-so-holy-priesthood would send their so long loyal people to death just for testing purposes^^
So from the things and me thinking about it i belive it has to be the political desicion made through wars (like plot of league of legends eg ;) ) - rewards would be possible too (like gladiator pitfights) in terms of motivation for the mages, but that woudn't prevent them from fighting in wars^^

So my guess: Political descisions.... But I'll wait till the story team gets the official answer ;)
edit2: Then again, there is an country building military strenght, so why would countries still spend money for their troops if everything is solved through mages....
and if a country is attacked what stops the mages (in this case the country in "defence" is the one of the priestresses, forgot the name^^) from joining the war... so realy curious what is the trick about the magewars^^

Mgrancey

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 11:29:04 AM »
From what I remember talking to guys at Orgins '12:

Drawing magic from Voltaire (magical realm) on a wide spread basis was having adverse effects upon the world, (warping, monsters, etc) and at some point the countries/Mages realized that they could end up destroying the world they were fighting for. Eventually they agreed to only have magical duels/fights in specific locations. I believe there are multiple arenas, but they are all just called arenas.

I think they have been constructed to be resistant to effects of heavy magic use in them, though actually having different looking arena boards would be pretty cool.

Tokata

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 08:49:44 AM »
Mhm,
well first:
According to the lore, if i memorize right, there is a City very rich and famous because it is THE city for the Magewars, so i doubt multiple arenas^^
The destroying the world: Woudn't be a whole country full of mages experimentating 24/7 (so there is a country like that, according to lore^^) cause much more harm to the world then some little wars? (I just think... experimenta, instabil magic, wich is daily bread of a whole country, vs some temporary wars between some countries wich in combination would have less mages then the country of mages^^ ) (srry i only refear to it as country of mages forgott the name)

+: If you are going to loose your country because your mages lost in the magewars... well first: What use would military have. secound: Why should a patriotic mage (i'm sure there are some^^) still stick to rules that doom his beloved country^^

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 08:47:40 PM »
Tokata, I think I have a possible answer to your question about the nation of Sortilege, where the majority of Wizards come from. Since too much magic use widespread could cause really bad things to happen, then why not just limit how much magic is used? The whole nation of Sortilege could have a Total Channeling cap, which means that at any one time there is only so much total mana being channeled into Sortilege. Considering their wide population of Wizards, it should be relatively simple for them to keep track of mana use throughout the country, since wizards are able to perceive and control the flow of mana. There's probably some sort of lock on everyone in Sortilege so while they're there they can only channel a certain amount of mana when and where they're authorized to do so.

All those experiments going on you mentioned? The Mages conducting them would have to send an official request for the amount of mana they need to channel with a list of everything they plan to use it for--or in other words, a research grant. There would also be channeling set aside for other purposes. For instance, if someone commits a crime using magic, they could tap into the plane of Voltaire and make it regurgitate echoes of the spells that were cast in the crime, to be used as evidence. Or if there's an emergency, like a huge natural disaster, they can be authorized to channel enough mana to evacuate people by teleportation. Or if someone's life is in danger, a Mage can use his or her small mana pool that they are allowed to carry with them at all times to save that person's (or their own) life.

After all that, if there's any room left in the nation's channeling budget, it can be used for more recreational purposes: community events like national holidays and big sporting events and cultural and arts festivals and the like.

Of course, this is only a theory. Anyone else have any thoughts about this?
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Tokata

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 05:25:32 PM »
Well who would tell a nation of mages what their channeling budget is? And also, mages of this nation aren't united but if i recall right, more a huge group of individuals, by chance living near each other.

I see some attempts to do Magewars Story equaly to League of Legends lore (Yes this game actualy has a lore, just noone knows about)

LoL Lore: After the Xth (Think it was the 3rd) Runewar(War with lots of magic involved) a huge part of runterra was destroyed. In the remaining "healthy" parts of runterra a huge group of powerfull mages came together, to create the instute of war, the host for the league of legends. Each member commits its champions to the league (the braves warriors, the deadliest assassins, the most powerfull mages). They then fight for political descisions.

The point is, if a country doesn't stick to that, mages of the instute of war are REALY powerfull. They once set the two most powerfull armys of two states (Demacia and Noxus) and an entire town into time-statis, when they began to fight and use magic during this fight.

I just don't see that there is an ammount of mages who could do this in Magewars. Sure, the country full of mages would have the power, but they are split, and if they would host it, the Magewar-Arena (there is only one, or at least only few arenas) in their country, rather then in some town somewhere far far away.

So thats the main problem - If they use the MageWars to prevent wars - who the hell would stick to loose?
Warlocks - Why? Honor? No!
Mages - Why? We outwit you and are powerfull in magic, we won't let you in our country just because one stupid apprentice mage lost a battle.
Beastmaster (and nation) - guess the people of the forest are to split to select "one" champion.
Priest - Ok maybe they would stick to it
Warlord & forcemaster - Doubt they even stand for a nation, forcemaster for the mage nation maybe but warlord seems like more of a mercenary to me

There is, at least to me, nothing that could control if some nation decides not to accept the outcome of a magewar.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 06:31:58 PM »
Actually, there are two things I can think of that would bind them to the outcome of a Mage Wars battle.

1. International Interdependence. I know this might sound unrealistic on first glance, but it's happening right now in real life. Countries who hate each other (or at least strongly dislike each other) are still sometimes economically dependent on each other. Like the US and China. They don't get along that well, but it's unlikely that they'll ever go to war over their disputes. At least not a real war, anyways. Economic or virtual espionage performed by corporations to try to gain an upperhand economically, is something I can imagine happening. War? Not so much.

2. A binding magical contract that does something horrible to whoever breaks it, or maybe even to everyone. I'm thinking some sort of spell backlash capable of destroying Etheria. Killing the contract signer isn't enough because for countries with Necromancers, or countries whose leaders are willing to sacrifice themselves for "the greater good" the Mage Wars institution probably will have little hold on them. In that scenario, it probably wouldn't have much hold on the Warlocks either, since they're minions of a religious organization without national borders.

And while I'm on the subject of Warlocks, as much as I don't want to sound annoying by preaching political correctness (since we all hate that), I have to say the blatant stereotyping of Satanists, while not unexpected is still kind of sad, and annoyingly typical. People talk about them like they're sadistic/evil/morally depraved, when in reality they're just members of a religion like any other. Two religions actually. The original Satanists didn't believe in Satan at all, and then another religion split off from it that did, and they went by the same name. Just because someone believes in Satan and thinks he's good rather than evil, doesn't make that person evil. I'm kind of annoyed that Arcane Wonders made an entire class of Mages evil. That would be blatant stereotyping of a religious subculture even if it weren't loosely based off of one that exists in real life.


Yeah, I can see what you mean about how the Wizards of Sortilege are probably too proud of their magic to submit to a national channeling budget, let alone a cap. Perhaps the problem could be the concentration or density of channeling, rather than the total amount of mana being channeled altogether? So the issue would be too many people channeling a large amount of mana in close proximity, like the large amounts of mana being thrown about in a huge battle between armies of mages, rather than merely the total mana being channeled.

Otherwise I can't imagine the world of Etheria surviving the constant spells being cast by those Sortilegians, who are too proud to restrain their powers like that.
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Tokata

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2013, 07:22:15 PM »
So first to the warlocks...
Let me get one flavor text:
Lash of hellfire:
"The perfect torture device. It digs deep and cauterizes the wounds. No mess!"

Rulebook:  "They have shown us fire that burns withing etheria and with that fire your nations will burn."

Even thou not ALL warlocks may be evil, surely MOST are, as most spells are not for simply killing but for killing realy painfull (magebaine, gouhl rot).


+ I never talked about satanists - i just talked about warlocks. Neither did Arcane wonders talk about satanists - they created warlocks. Demons are a huge team in fantasy worlds, and these are not "christian" or "moslem" or "someothercrazyrelgion" demons - that are evil fantasy demons that exist. And i have to say i love demons - chaos in warhammer? Amazing, i'm happy everytime i see one of those epic kickass khorne warriors... a bit less when i know i have to face him soon cause he is on the side of my enemys...
there is no such thing as god or satan in mageawars - and if you want my personal opinion (if someone want to be offended - be it. Its my personal opinion, and as much as you think your religion is right i think i'm right -no need to respond, i don't want a discusion about religion in this threat): Religions are bullshit, drugs for the desperate people who need it to get through life, we would all be much better of without it (less wars, more technological advantage, just think of all the scientists and books that burned in thename of religion and all the wars that were made in name of religion)

But in general i agree with you, not because you use some type of magic you are nececary evil - there may be warlocks who stuck to this kind of magic for some damn good reasons. I know story about an order of bloodmages whos weapons absorbed the blood of their enemys for spells, who used this power because they needed it to keep the country alive - not because they were evil or something.
But those guys are usualy minorety ;)

So the national dependence: This is a sign of globalisation, there was no such thing in such a scale in the past, and even if you need the resources of the other country - why not conquer it? USA uses china for cheap labor and many labourers - but what would be cheaper then slaves?

The contract - who created it? There is no such thing as a united powerfull magical force, as far as we know.
Also - there are always some madmen who want to see the world burn, and gladly sacrisfice themself for that sake, so the knockback on etheria would just be a bonus to such individuals


And on the mage country: Its the main reason why i can't accept that the mage wars are there to restrict useage of magic... experiments with magic can always fail, and if a country of manic wizzards, who all think themself as geniuses experimentates 24/7 there has to be some HUGE failures... that may likely have effects like a war had.
(Just think about a mage that wants to create a "mana battery"... day for day he stucks his mana in it, and after some years it explodes... imagine the explosion - keep in mind that the same wizzard can build up mana to cast "Electrify" in less then a minute.)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 07:35:40 PM by Tokata »

Tokata

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2013, 07:37:14 PM »
So first to the warlocks...
Let me get one flavor text:
Lash of hellfire:
"The perfect torture device. It digs deep and cauterizes the wounds. No mess!"

Rulebook:  "They have shown us fire that burns withing etheria and with that fire your nations will burn."

Even thou not ALL warlocks may be evil, surely MOST are, as most spells are not for simply killing but for killing realy painfull (magebaine, gouhl rot).


+ I never talked about satanists - i just talked about warlocks. Neither did Arcane wonders talk about satanists - they created warlocks. Demons are a huge team in fantasy worlds, and these are not "christian" or "moslem" or "someothercrazyrelgion" demons - that are evil fantasy demons that exist. And i have to say i love demons - chaos in warhammer? Amazing, i'm happy everytime i see one of those epic kickass khorne warriors... a bit less when i know i have to face him soon cause he is on the side of my enemys...
So even if some fantasy stuff may have its origins in one or the other religion, you shoudn't think of it as "oh this refers to budhism or to dadaism or to whatever" just think - Ok its a world on its own, it has angels and demons, fine, 50% of the fantasy worlds have those. there is no such thing as god or satan in mageawars - and if you want my personal opinion (if someone want to be offended - be it. Its my personal opinion, and as much as you think your religion is right i think i'm right -no need to respond, i don't want a discusion about religion in this threat): Religions are bullshit, drugs for the desperate people who need it to get through life, we would all be much better of without it (less wars, more technological advantage, just think of all the scientists and books that burned in thename of religion and all the wars that were made in name of religion)

But in general i agree with you, not because you use some type of magic you are nececary evil - there may be warlocks who stuck to this kind of magic for some damn good reasons. I know story about an order of bloodmages whos weapons absorbed the blood of their enemys for spells, who used this power because they needed it to keep the country alive - not because they were evil or something.
But those guys are usualy minorety ;)

So the national dependence: This is a sign of globalisation, there was no such thing in such a scale in the past, and even if you need the resources of the other country - why not conquer it? USA uses china for cheap labor and many labourers - but what would be cheaper then slaves?

The contract - who created it? There is no such thing as a united powerfull magical force, as far as we know.
Also - there are always some madmen who want to see the world burn, and gladly sacrisfice themself for that sake, so the knockback on etheria would just be a bonus to such individuals


And on the mage country: Its the main reason why i can't accept that the mage wars are there to restrict useage of magic... experiments with magic can always fail, and if a country of manic wizzards, who all think themself as geniuses experimentates 24/7 there has to be some HUGE failures... that may likely have effects like a war had.
(Just think about a mage that wants to create a "mana battery"... day for day he stucks his mana in it, and after some years it explodes... imagine the explosion - keep in mind that the same wizzard can build up mana to cast "Electrify" in less then a minute.)

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 09:06:51 AM »
Except I thought that Warlocks are humans, not demons. They certainly look like humans. And I'm pretty sure that it isn't a coincidence that Warlocks are part of a religion centered on demons and Etheria's version of he**. How many of those exist in real life that aren't called Satanism? Maybe there are some, but none that I or most people are likely to recognize. And I think you'll be surprised to find that my views on religion are quite similar to yours. But fortunately, just because I view religion as intellectual slavery (or partial intellectual slavery, depending on the religion), doesn't mean that I'm going to start labeling and stereotyping people for it. I think that because of human bias and error, as well as the error of our measuring instruments, no knowledge is absolutely for certain. We can get pretty close using scientific evidence, but some people don't always trust that, especially if they feel like it goes against their long held identities or world views. I think without doing all the necessary research, many people will have to rely on measurements of their own or of their friends and families, and if their families taught them to rely on measurements made thousands of years ago by (in their mind) God, and they tell that to a person from the time that they're very young at an age where they will believe whatever their parents say... Of course this is just my very strong opinion, although I'm extremely positive that my opinion is accurate. I don't have the expertise in sociology to properly evaluate it though, and I haven't read enough sociology books in the past couple years. I'm relying on my own experiences and sense for this evaluation, which means that I can't be condescending to people who disagree with me, because my perceptions that I have gained from experiences are also flawed, since I am only human. So I'm not going to walk door to door trying to convince people. People are going to think what they think, and there's only so much I can do about it. I can present my side, and other people choose whether to accept it, but I'm not going to attempt to forcefully wrench someone from their culture and heritage to believe what I believe and share my values of reason and rationality, even if I think that what they believe is harmful and wrong. If I did that I would be attempting to exert at least some level intellectual control over someone, trying to push my views and values onto them. If I did that, I would be doing little better than a religion. And it still aggravates me when people try to box other people into stereotypes or try to control them intellectually. That's why it bothers me so much that most if not all Warlocks are evil. An entire school of magic shouldn't be evil. That's like elemental racism or something.





And why not have some globalization in Etheria? They already have one global institution in the form of the Mage Wars. Just because they're not very advanced in the kind of technology we have in real life, doesn't mean they can't have globalization. THEY HAVE MAGIC! Who says Mage Wars takes place in the past? ;D


And perhaps the Mage Wars are in a sense, temporary. On the wizard's description it says that when they get tired of all the other mages' with their lack of understanding, summoning angels and demons or whatever, that the wizards of sortilege will cut their "strings" and they will "channel no more". I'm thinking the Mage Wars were established by an actual world war. The winners forced the losers to sign the contract with them. So maybe breaking the contract would start an actual war, and the only way to restore the peace is to defeat those who broke the contract and restore the Mage Wars institution.

Maybe the spell backlash of breaking the contract temporarily takes away the channeling abilities of the entire offending mage class? While it might seem impossible to do that to every single mage of a certain school of magic, I think it's possible if the spell is cast by a very large number of mages. While mana and channeling control is usually a wizard's specialty, if mages are binding their own channeling with that of their enemies, using an enchantment cast by a wizard and having it be copied indefinitely by a mage class skilled in copying enchantments, then perhaps, theoretically, once the contract is signed, it spreads out through chains of mages, starting from the contract signers, to their armies, and then when the members of those armies get back home, to all the mages in the general populace.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 09:18:21 AM by Imaginator »
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Tokata

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Re: So... Magewars... what are they for?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 01:24:54 PM »
So it would be kinda like a magic desease...

Well there would be some points about this:

1) you mentioned that, if the wizzards want, they claim they can stop all channeling - if that is true, and not just some arrogant talking, they would have to be the "hosts" of the magewars.
That leads to some questions:
1.1) Woudn't wizzards only match themselfes against weaker foes, so they could shine in all their glory, and won't have the danger of getting killed?
1.2) If the Wizzards didn't create the magic desease... i guess for an country that claims to be able to end all channeling, it would be easy to get rid of this pesty thing
1.3) The question what binds them to the outcome of the match, and wether or not the matchs outcome has any consequences stays
- If they are purely for fun... well i doubt many knights and priests want to be matched to overpowered mages, just for "fun"
- If they are for lets say political reasons - As i said, the priestess nation may stick to it. But as i claimed none other would, least of all the wizzards...

Also - what would the contract say? As it seems to be legit to experiment with magic, witch, in may oppinion, is able to cause the biggest disasters, and magic is kinda free-to-use for every1 (Bull endurance - spell often sold at brothels) - where is the cut between a fight and a war made? - to what extend is it allowed to use magic for such purposes? etc.

And - More easily asked - why the fuq would someone cause himself so much trouble, casting an enchantment on every damn mage in the lands, when he could just stop their channeling (i guess the person have to be one of the wizzards or more powerfull then wizzards) - preventing magic wars for all time


So after all i'm realy curious what we will hear of the game developers to this topic... everything i thought about that far goes well untill some point. then the question "But wait what about..." pops up.


Just for fun and glory - Ok that may be best possible... but... sacrisfising so many lifes, just for fun... well ok we may think back to romans... guess thats best possible after all^^ - woudn't explain the "cataclysmic event that lead to the mages wars" tho... also bringing some mages like bm in the arena is hard to explain^^
Political descisions / Preventing of war - How to bind them? Why don't the wizzards break that contract? To splitted up nations that can't predict one champion / Others doesn't stick to it and so on...
If wizzards set it up - why not in their home country? Who hosts the event?



On the globalisation: What we know so far are none advanced machineries or materials. Most things are done by magic, and each country has their own mages. The technology is just reaching blackpowder weapons ("Grimson Deadeyes flavor says: Boltstorm designed the new long range weapon, but grimson had the aim to use it best) - as far as i can tell its a typical front-loader (is this the correct term?) blackpowder weapon - not realy advanced technology.
And lets see what we need globalisation for today:
Workers - Cheap workers in asian and african countrys cyonly nececary for big cooperations
Resources - Sure you can trade resources, but you can also conquer them
And over that there is a "Allie"-system: If you attack an european country, you got the european union. If you attack china, usa, russia, they are big enough itself. If you attack smaller countrys, you get bad press and sink in the view of other countrys - I doubt there is a that globalized allie system, as there is no need for globalisation of the above points. Also, most leaders doesn't need to care about bad press - Warlocks would be honored by their people, wizzards follow the witest. Priest country probaply woudn't allie with countrys of other religions. Beastmasters... well they have no real reason to fight^^
Hollydays - That is luxus, and if there are no mages that do the teleportation for their people,  i doubt there would be much" hollydays" in magewars for normal people
Special knowledge (in magewars: magical arts) - capture mages and force them to do it or teach you

I just don't realy see globalisation work in magewars, unless there is a big bunch of mages that constantly teleports resources around the world^^