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Author Topic: Hindering, flying, and timing  (Read 3931 times)

Skytale

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Hindering, flying, and timing
« on: March 01, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »
If a creature is hindered, does that fact stay with them through the rest of their action no matter what, or can that later be negated?

For example:

1) Suppose I have a non-flying creature (with hidden enchantments) and there are enemy non-pest, non-flyers everywhere. I activate the creature and move it one square, it should now be hindered. If, at this point, I reveal an "eagle wings" or "mongoose agility" enchantment on the creature, is it now free to move a second space, since flyers and elusive creatures are not hindered by ground creatures?

If the answer to the above is, "Nope, still hindered" then I have a follow up question:

2) If a naturally flying creature is guarding in a space with a non-flying enemy. Will it be hindered when it takes its next action? That is, does the guard trait (that is removing its flying ability) disappear before the creature starts its turn? Or is it removed right afterwards, implying that the flyer is still hindered from having started its turn on the ground?

Koy

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2013, 03:45:35 PM »
Hi Skytale,

First, let's get Hinder defined to work from:

Hinder:

If a creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any enemy creatures, it is hindered and may only move 1 zone during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait). If it moves into a zone occupied by an enemy creature, it is hindered, and must stop and cannot take any more move actions this Action Phase. Incapacitated, Restrained, or Pest creatures cannot hinder movement. Flying creatures cannot hinder the movement of non-Flying creatures, and visa-versa. Elusive creatures cannot be hindered by other creatures. (page 41)

So the answers from that would be:

1)  In your specific example, your creature is hindered regardless of what what effects you add AFTER the fact.  If you revealed the Elusive or Flying trait enabler effects before it's action phase began, you could avoid Hinder that way.

2)  This is one of those sticky timing rules, but the way I play it would be your creature started it's action phase non-flying and in a square with a non-pest creature.  Thus it is hindered and flying.  Guard is removed at the beginning of the action phase.

For reference:  

Guard:
Guard markers are always removed at the beginning of a creature’s Action Phase. (page 29)

piousflea

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2013, 11:12:20 PM »
Hm, this makes sense from the way the rules are worded, but it also means that the Necropian Vampiress
 can't get out of Hinder by paying 1 mana to Fly away. Darn!

Arcanus

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 02:12:50 PM »
Not sure if I am too late with this, but here is our section on Hindering taken right our of the new FAQ we are about to publish:


Hindering
“Hindered” is a state that is tracked over the course of a creature's activation. A creature starts out hindered (or becomes hindered) if he is in a zone (or moves into a zone) with any enemy creatures or objects that can hinder him. A creature who is hindered, or becomes hindered, cannot take a second move action this round, even if he has the fast trait. For example, if a creature begins a round hindered, and then moves into a zone without enemies, it still cannot move a second time this round. Note that if a creature is unhindered, it can move into a zone where there are enemies as its second and final move.  
Movement by teleporting ignores the Hindering restriction. If a creature teleports before it takes any move actions, it can become un-hindered if it teleports into a zone without any enemy objects that can hinder it.
The official rule: A creature cannot take a second move action (except by teleportation), if it is in a zone where it is currently hindered, or has already moved this round out of a zone where it was hindered.

sdougla2

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 05:16:20 PM »
Interesting. That's a bit sad for Necropian Vampiress, but it helps Blue Gremlins a bit.
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Skytale

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 12:53:03 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, but I still think there's some ambiguity here.

It seems well-established that if a creature is hindered and takes a move action, than it cannot move again by any means other than teleport.

But this rule: If a creature teleports before it takes any move actions, it can become un-hindered if it teleports into a zone without any enemy objects that can hinder it. suggests that if a creature gets away from effective hinderers before taking a move action, than it is home free. So couldn't the vampiress gain flight at the beginning of her turn to lose hindered status as well, if in a square with only enemy non-flyers?

And again, if not, is there any chance of an official ruling on the timing issue posed in question 2? I did notice some interesting wording in the rulebook (p. 29):

If a guard is not melee attacked, it may retain its guard marker until the start of its next Action Phase. (emphasis added)

The use of the word "may" there is very interesting. Does that mean there is a mechanism for a creature to decide to stop guarding at some intermittent point before it starts its next action? If so, that would resolve the timing issue.

Arcanus

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 05:19:42 PM »
Hello Skytale, I'll try to help out here.

I think the Necropian Vampiress is a legitimate claim.  If she gains Flying before she moves, then she is not hindered before she takes her first move action. The same would apply if you reveal an Eagle Wings on a creature in a zone before it moves.

I will pass this by the rules team and get this on the FAQ, hopefully tonight.

On your other question that should not be a "may". It should read; "If a guard is not melee attacked, it retains (or must retain) its guard marker until the start of its next Action Phase.". I am not sure I understand your question or concern here - please let me know if you had a further question.

Thanks.

Skytale

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 06:32:44 PM »
Yep, that answers my questions, thanks.

The timing question was only a problem on the assumption that "hindered" status was permanent for the round once acquired. If you can become unhindered by changing status (flying, elusive) before moving, then there is no concern.

Koy

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 02:30:19 PM »
Arcanus,

I've gone from feeling I had the correct answer here to not understanding the timing.  The Necropian Vampiress cannot gain flying until she is activated.  Hinder states that if a creature starts its action phase in a zone where it can be hindered, it becomes hindered.  This is not the same case as Eagle Wings, as you could reveal that before the creature becomes active.  Thus, there is no way the Vampiress could avoid hinder, as she will always start her action on the ground, and thus hindered.

I had assumed Teleport was an exception to this rule, but now it seems that extends beyond Teleport?

Arcanus

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Re: Hindering, flying, and timing
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 03:16:46 PM »
We have decided to update hindering, and here is the official rule right out of the FAQ:

The official rule: A creature cannot take a second move action (even if it has the Fast trait), if it is in a zone where it is currently hindered, or has already moved this round out of a zone while it was hindered.

Note the keyword "while" above. If a creature can teleport away, or gain flying, BEFORE it moves, then it is essentially unhindered and can move freely. We felt this was better for the game, possibly more fair and realistic, and allowed for interesting tactics.

Here is the rest of the FAQ entry:

A creature may be able to become unhindered before its first move action. For example, the Necropian Vampiress could gain Flying before she moves. If there are no flyers in her zone before she moves, then she could exit the zone unhindered. If she is unhindered in the new zone, she can move again as a second move action. The same would apply with a creature revealing an Eagle Wings before it takes its first move action.

Movement by teleporting ignores the Hindering restriction. If a creature teleports before it takes any move actions, it can become un-hindered if it teleports into a zone without any enemy objects that can hinder it.